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La Pavoni Giotto debate (moved to here)

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  • #31
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    And then there's also this one... Anyone contemplating dual boiler, PID and Rotary would be crazy not to have a look over it because it's at a different level. It's also on a full stainless chassis, with stainless boiler and solenoid. It's up and ready to use within 20 min.

    We're happy to pull the lid to prove that it has the build quality and performance to match if not better all comers. Shot timer optional and the quietest rotary pump on the market. The photos don't go anywhere near doing it justice in the metal.

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    • #32
      And here are some more. CS'ers can have an e-61 super naked portafilter to add to the kit on request.

      They have sold really quickly (a few left), but we have another batch coming prior to Christmas.
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      • #33
        I remember in one of my favourite episodes of Get Smart, Max and the Chief went to dinner at his Mums house. Their cover is that they are both greeting card salesmen.

        KAOS crashed their party and a big shoot out ensued

        Max's Mum is on the veranda watching and says ' oh my, I didn't realise that the greeting card business was so competitive'.

        I guess the coffee business is even more competitive than greeting cards...[emoji28]

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        • #34
          Verdicts by the italian court

          Good morning,


          we are La Pavoni S.p.A and we can reply to your statements as follows:


          1) Giotto machine produced by La Pavoni is fully entitled to be produced and sold all over the world.


          There are no claims that forbid us to manufacture and sell this machine in Europe, Asia, USA and Australia.


          2) Under a legal point of view, we had two favorable verdicts by the Italian Court authorizing us to produce and sell Giotto Cellini models (copy enclosed.)


          http://www.ecm-espresso.it/ECM%20ingl.pdf
          http://www.ecm-espresso.it/dichiaraz...%20inglese.pdf
          http://www.ecm-espresso.it/EN%20La%20Pavoni%201011.pdf




          No additional comments are necessary on the useless and wrong rumors.



          Thank you all and best regards.


          La Pavoni

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          • #35
            Originally posted by coffee_machinist View Post
            Personally I think it's a shame with the design pedigree and heritage of a company like La Pavoni that have created some of the most stunning espresso machines of the 20th century (la cornutta, concorso, europiccola) and their collaboration with legendary designers like Gio Ponti that the best they have to offer in 2016 is a rehashed version of another company's decades old styling.
            I concur with Rick La Pavoni. What a pity that you couldn't give a guy a job and produce something unique. The Chinese make fake BMWs too. It disprespects the IP of other companies that do the hard yards in my opinion.

            Here's a real one that Rocket prepared earlier

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            Last edited by TC; 17 September 2016, 10:22 AM. Reason: because photos of copied product are not permitted here

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            • #36
              Just passing by...not so sure what's up with the obsession/enthusiasm over the minor curves/shapes in the already plain stainless steel boxes....I mean...they are all just shiny metal boxes(look good alright) and here we are splitting hair whether the curve should be 90.2 degree or 89.1 degree....

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                I concur with Rick La Pavoni. What a pity that you couldn't give a guy a job and produce something unique. The Chinese make fake BMWs too....

                Here's a real one that Rocket prepared earlier

                [ATTACH=CONFIG]13916[/ATTACH]
                I think you mean a company based in China makes, in your opinion, fake BMWs.

                It is quite clear your statement is meant to disparage Chinese people (or products made in China, if so your wording was poorly chosen).

                Bullying we can deal with, racism is not acceptable.

                Maybe time for me to sign-off from this forum as the usefulness is outweighed by the attacks; I draw the line at reading racial slurs as being amusing.

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                • #38
                  Nope- Not racism BeanBrat. In fact, I find your comment offensive.

                  Some companies feel it's fine to steal the IP of other companies by producing lookalikes. It's like fake handbags, fake jeans, pullman tamper copies, OCD distribution tool copies. There are hundreds of other examples.

                  A court ruling does not necessarily imply justice. Big companies have big fat pockets and big fat lawyers to "win" regardless of the cost. Speak to your mate who lost in the family law courts.

                  It sucks to put it bluntly.
                  Last edited by TC; 17 September 2016, 12:38 PM. Reason: info

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by BeanBrat View Post
                    I think you mean a company based in China makes, in your opinion, fake BMWs.

                    It is quite clear your statement is meant to disparage Chinese people (or products made in China, if so your wording was poorly chosen).

                    Bullying we can deal with, racism is not acceptable.

                    Maybe time for me to sign-off from this forum as the usefulness is outweighed by the attacks; I draw the line at reading racial slurs as being amusing.
                    Nothing disparaging or racist about Chris's statement BB, the fact is the Chinese are shameless and unapologetic copiers Lets call a spade a spade.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                      Nope- Not racism BeanBrat. In fact, I find your comment offensive.

                      Some companies feel it's fine to steal the IP of other companies by producing lookalikes. It's like fake handbags, fake jeans, pullman tamper copies, OCD distribution tool copies. There are hundreds of other examples.

                      It sucks to put it bluntly.
                      I stand by my comment regardless of whether you are offended. You chose to single out a racial group in a way which was disparaging ... that is racism. If you are offended, maybe review your wording before hitting the post button.

                      Regarding the whole 'copy and fake' argument, the Italian courts have ruled on this Giotto question. Rocket lost.

                      Hundreds of examples? It's irrelevant how many examples because this isn't an example of copying, see the Italian court ruling.

                      Debate the Giotto question until this thread reaches 20+ pages, all you are doing is giving La Pavoni some free advertising for their new Giotto range of machines .. and making some blatantly incorrect statements along the way.

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                      • #41
                        Laughed at bullying, talk about sensitive/trying to play the racist card. Victim card is playing well for a certain member. I'll take knowledgeable experience based "harsh" advice from a reputable sponsor over a short term fluff merchant any day of the week.

                        Call a snake a snake when someone is constantly deleting/editing posts, making wild claims, and heavily "encouraging" customers to give testimonials on this forum after a sale. I'll sleep well putting my money into the bullshit-free sponsors.

                        Dear moderator: I await the deletion of this post as per usual, need to protect those sponsorship $'s above all else after all.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                          Nope- Not racism BeanBrat. In fact, I find your comment offensive.

                          Some companies feel it's fine to steal the IP of other companies by producing lookalikes. It's like fake handbags, fake jeans, pullman tamper copies, OCD distribution tool copies. There are hundreds of other examples.

                          It sucks to put it bluntly.
                          I agree with your feelings re copies Chris, one point to ponder, wonder how Reg Barber felt when Greg Pullman started copying his tampers? less than impressed I would imagine.
                          Last edited by Yelta; 17 September 2016, 06:40 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by evro50 View Post
                            Laughed at bullying, talk about sensitive/trying to play the racist card. Victim card is playing well for a certain member. I'll take knowledgeable experience based "harsh" advice from a reputable sponsor over a short term fluff merchant any day of the week.

                            Call a snake a snake when someone is constantly deleting/editing posts, making wild claims, and heavily "encouraging" customers to give testimonials on this forum after a sale. I'll sleep well putting my money into the bullshit-free sponsors.

                            Dear moderator: I await the deletion of this post as per usual, need to protect those sponsorship $'s above all else after all.
                            All good up to the last sentence Evro50, without the support of sponsors we probably wouldn't have a forum, most of them bend over backwards to provide valuable, relatively unbiased information.
                            Last edited by Yelta; 17 September 2016, 12:29 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Agree mate, 100% directed at one who seems to be getting extra/over protection. Couple of my previous posts were deleted because it was unflattering to a certain someone.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by evro50 View Post
                                Call a snake a snake when someone is constantly deleting/editing posts, making wild claims, and heavily "encouraging" customers to give testimonials on this forum after a sale. I'll sleep well putting my money into the bullshit-free sponsors.
                                Give the guy a break - Coffee Snobs has some pretty baked on culture here that is resistant to change, and so making a racket sometimes is the only way to move things along. One of those baked on culture things is that sponsors really haven't been all that engaged in recent years, bar a select few. Now we have another engaged sponsor, and yes he has a different approach, and both he and all of us are just getting used to the additional personality in the room. He's already come a long way in the past few months in working with what is culturally accepted, and I'd expect more evolution there. Everyone starts somewhere - by example, I know my first few posts on this site were full of garbage, but have steadily improved.

                                Editing posts is part of being in a forum. I'd certainly like to see some more measured, carefully worded posts from sponsors straight off the bat into the future. I'm all for facts, avoiding fluff and unsubstantiated claims of "I've seen them all" and "Nothing comes close", but it goes both ways I'm afraid. It's just part and parcel of communication... and sales.

                                If you go back far enough (and I did a few months ago), testimonial posts have been a part of a number of well-loved sponsors experiences in getting off the ground here. It's just that now, some sponsors have sufficient footholds that it's not necessary for them. *shrug* Just ignore the threads if you don't like them. I'm sure eventually they'll disappear. I enjoy hearing people's positive experiences and enjoying their new machines, and (normally) invites good, pleasant threads to take part in, celebrating coffee together.

                                I really enjoy Chris' technical posts and careful consideration of the nitty gritty, I likewise enjoy Paul's unbound enthusiasm and eagerness to participate in the community of ideas. They each have something positive to contribute to our forum here, they're just quite different, and sometimes where Paul doesn't understand Coffee mechanics as well as Chris does, they're at odds.

                                Now, this thread is unfortunately very different. There are multiple levels of unsettled business regarding the Giotto scenario, and it's probably brought out the worst in everyone. But as long as Casa Espresso are happy bringing them into the country, we'll be bearing with these challenges as a community. We unfortunately reside in one of the few places where both brands will meet regularly. This won't be the last explosive thread, I'm sure.

                                However, in general I'd just be wary implying that a sponsor is 'bullshit' over another - everyone has a history, and I'd personally not be calling that history - nor another persons present reality - anything other than starting a new venture, and working it out as they go along.


                                Let's all take the tone down a little.

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