La Pavoni Giotto debate (moved to here)

[iscm]

Room for competition

I just bought a Rocket Giotto and must say that over all it seems like a good machine.
However, I accept that it is a 'classic' style, so am not surprised that another company produces one that looks similar.
In fact, after seeing that some of the finish and fit of my machine is not quite as good as I would expect, I would say that a bit of competition may be good.
It may be that Rocket should look more closely at their quality and finish and a bit less on the branding.
I still like my machine, but my version with the PID and timer has a drip tray that is stainless direct onto the painted steel chassis and its fit is not so good. I think that an earlier version had magnetic catches and plastic runners for the drip tray to rest on. Also the cup warmer surround could have a better finish.
These are minor niggles, but show why competition could be needed.

I would rather that Rocket just concentrate on producing great machines and stop worrying about a competitor using a classic design.
Now if Rocket produced a totally unique and new design and that was then copied, then I might understand them not being too pleased.

It seems that nearly all machines of this level using the E61 have quite a lot of outward similarities.
I really do not get hung up about that.
Just look at smartphones.
Most have morphed into one similar style.

[Casa Espresso]

Thanks for your side of the coin Antony,





I have genuinely wished you every success in person and again do so publicly here. I know that we will continue to do great business in products other than La Pavoni and you know that you have our support with all things Izzo as well.


Cheers...

Chris

Yes we are part of the Izzo family. You know my weakness for levers......

[Logga]

Could you tell me please:

Or is it, Independent Patent, who knows, but its very good reading.

[shortblackman]

Thanks Mal!

Gotta get meself some intellectual property.

[Dimal]

Could you tell me please:

Intellectual property...

Mal.

[Yelta]

It's a chrome box with some flared panels on the side.

Basically all Italian machines are chrome boxes.

They will continue to be made and be chrome boxes.

Also this machine sort of looks like a face. The two PID boxes are eyes and the E61 group is like a big nose.

If you have a winning formula why change it.

[wattgn]

Stands for long drawn out boring legal arguments that should stay in the confines of a courtroom

[shortblackman]

Could you tell me please:

[wattgn]

The big nose is a genetic thing. I agree though that E61 machines struggle a bit to differentiate themselves.

[noidle22]

It's a chrome box with some flared panels on the side.

Basically all Italian machines are chrome boxes.

They will continue to be made and be chrome boxes.

Also this machine sort of looks like a face. The two PID boxes are eyes and the E61 group is like a big nose.

[TC]

Thanks for your side of the coin Antony,

I guess theres a continuum and somewhere between the extremes of the stories of each company exists the truth. Who knows if we'll ever know it? Perhaps it's none of our business.

I once heard a story that prior to the insolvency of Milan, both Rocket Espresso (NZ) and ECM Germany assembled the then Giotto under licence. I have never seen a German variant of that vintage, but did see and have worked on the e-61 Rocket which was produced in New Zealand by Andrew's company, Rocket Espresso. Nevertheless, there's clearly a chapter in the history of the Giotto around the time of the insolvency which is yet to receive a public reading. It was a very gutsy move to put everything on the line and move his entire operation to Milan to rescue workers and rebirth the (ECM Milan) Giotto as the Rocket Espresso Giotto some 9 years ago. I respect and admire Andrew for that. He is a true gentleman of the industry.

Like Rick, I am enamoured with the amazing designs that La Pavoni have produced over the years, less so with this one. La Pavoni could have done so much more to produce something remarkable, but it is what it is.

Will it go to court in Australia? Who knows, but it sure will be interesting if it does.

There is a client who will choose the lineage back to ECM Milan and one who either can't tell the difference or doesn't care. They are in all likelihood mutually exclusive as will (have to) be outlets which sell and support either brand. I guess that was decided when war was declared.

I have genuinely wished you every success in person and again do so publicly here. I know that we will continue to do great business in products other than La Pavoni and you know that you have our support with all things Izzo as well.

I also know for a fact that Rocket Espresso are responding and look forward to seeing and selling the outcome. I like that they lead rather than follow.

Cheers...

Chris

[LeroyC]

La Pavoni Giotto debate (moved to here)

Good to see a bit of sense and balance coming to this thread finally. I'm not gonna make judgement on legalities or machine comparisons as it does seem like it's a bit murky and unpleasant. The one thing that does stick out for me though (regardless of their legal right to do so), this does reek a bit of "holy crap! Rocket has done well with our old IP! We better jump on that wagon!" It feels like a whole lot of angst could've been avoided if the name Giotto was used, but not the iconic shape, or visa versa. There's lots of other examples of similarly shaped machines out there so it seems a shame to create problems unnecessarily.

[Casa Espresso]

Good afternoon all,

Like a few I have been watching this thread with interest.

A lot of information has been put forward, some true, some inaccurate and some just plainly wrong.

We have been involved in the industry for 10 years now. I have been a site sponsor for 8.

We import and distribute number of products from Italy we are the exclusive Australian agent for Ancap cups, we also import Elektra, Macap and yes La Pavoni.

The La Pavoni Giotto an Celini models were presented to me by La Pavoni last December. In January this year we had our first samples here to begin evaluation. A number of changes and improvements were made to the models for the Australian market. These were done in conjuction with Rick "The Coffee Machinest" who as always told me how it is, and continues to be forthright and upfront in his assement of machines.

From a history point of view I don't claim to know all the back ground, however I do Know a lot more then most posting misinformation on this thread. The basic information as the best I know is

-The original Giotto was produced by the Italian company ECM.
- ECM as a company got into financial trouble sometime in the 2000s and certain parts of it were sold off to other various business including Rocket
- ECM Italy is now owned by an overriding company, Espresso Group SRL (Univest SRL), hence La Pavoni and ECM Italy are now under the same banner.
- There has been disagreement between Univest and Rocket about the IP over the name Giotto and the machine design
- It has gone to court in Italy and the court ruled in favour of Univest as they considered it " part of their existing knowledge base". La Pavoni Italy have posted these rulings earlier in this thread as they were somewhat concerned about some of the things written.

So form my point of view the La Pavoni/ECM Giotto is not a copy of the Rocket. Its a development of the design they produced in the 2000s . ECM Italy are also producing these exact machines but with different badging.
There is dispute between the two business about the IP, but its not my position as the La Pavoni agent to tell them these machines cant be sold in Australia.

The suggestion that these machines have been banned from sale in other countries is NOT true. La Pavoni have certainly confirmed in writing that this is not the case (refer to their post)
They are also readily available for sale in Europe, New Zealand, Canada, Asia etc. A quick google search will show this.

Are these machines the best on the market? Of course not, we would never suggest that. No one has the over ridding claim to suggest their product is "the best". As always, to use one of Chris's terms that I love "the best machine is the one that is best for the customer".

Are they good? Yes they are. Quality components, build finish etc

Is there a comprehensive service and warranty back up. Absolutely, just like everything else we supply Australia wide.

Are we sympathetic to the position of Rocket. Yes, the coffee industry is a small community and we all know each other, and there is obviously disagreement between the two companies in Italy, but its not our position to be the judge.

I am disappointed that some have suggested that we and La Pavoni have operated unethically, mainly by those that have taken the moral high ground on issue when they are not in possession of all the facts.

If anyone has any questions about these machines, service, back up etc then feel free to get in contact with me directly.

I am more then happy to answer any questions

Yours Sincerely

Antony
Casa Espresso

[Andy]

Dear moderator: I await the deletion of this post as per usual, need to protect those sponsorship $'s above all else after all.

...and...

Couple of my previous posts were deleted because it was unflattering to a certain someone.

Dear Anonymous Internet person known as Evro50.
Thank-you for your public accusations that we would protect sponsorship dollars in front of community. It's simply not true and I've had no qualms "sacking" or "slapping" site sponsors in the past.

In fact I think both your posts above are total garbage. I can't think of one single time in 12 years and near half a million posts that content was deleted because it was "unflattering". If you have had a post deleted then it was rude, slanderous, pure crap or it was a whole thread like this that we let people rant in for a couple of days then deleted the whole lot.

Last night I split these posts out of another valid thread. We all have much better things to do that babysit adults who should know how to behave better (adults used lightly here) but sometimes we have to babysit the sandpit. Most of the time if you have a post removed it's after lengthy behind the scenes discussions with the moderators. Sometimes if it's really offensive I'll just delete it and rarely bother telling the person as it would be pretty obvious why it disappeared.

Punchline is, if you expect your posts will be "deleted as per usual" then I think you really need to look at what you type before you post.

[TC]

Casa Espresso and Talk Coffee have done plenty of business together and will no doubt continue to do so.

I celebrate the fact that Antony and I get along really well and can agree to differ in viewpoint and maintain personal and business respect.