Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

[TampIt]

I think the 100 was probably included “for free” in the cost. I run an online store and when I was first starting I spent about 5000 dollars in insurance before making my first claim...a 30 dollar purchase that would have been covered anyway. They denied the claim anyway because they said it showed delivered despite the local office submitting on letterhead that the gps showed the carrier dropped it off at the wrong address...since then quit insuring and not a lost package to date. My biggest fear for him would be if he uses the same offices or passes through the same screening area and someone planned a large lift of multiple units. Even then probably would be less expensive not insuring anyway cameras and other technology have made shipping pretty trustworthy now.

The real question for me is how the heck are you all deciding between de1 and the pro... I keep putting the pro in my cart but by the time I add my accessories I’m over 3500 and hesitate, then switch to the de1, do the same thing and break 3k...then kick myself saying I don’t want to spend over 3k on the cheap materials...and so I keep waiting, indecisive and just thinking to wait on the new group head at the end of this year and maybe make up my mind then...don’t know how the rest of you are making the decision

G'day day

Freight: When I had my computer company and we did a lot of commercial machines and WANs I went through the same thing. After two years and $7k in insurance without a claim I dropped out of the insurance racket. After 15 years the one theft after that was covered by the freight company anyway - and I had declared full retail on it, so I actually made a standard margin anyway (plus a "second gross profit" when the client paid for the eventual replacement). You are correct, these days theft is not as much of an issue. Mind you, we always shipped the machines without an operating system so if a thief powered it, it just came up "boot failure" - quite a few cartons had been opened over the years.

Pro vs +: You asked how I made my decision, so here goes. I eventually chose the Pro (with the optional brushed steel front panel, a needed spare naked p/f and unused Skale - my Bonavita is more convenient until a scale is integrated into the tablet software) simply because there are three main locations it will be used in (tried two so far) and the Pro had all three plumbing options covered. My original intention was to leave the two kits in their respective spots - and like all plan A's it changed... I also hesitated because the Decent DExxx cannot shot and froth at the same time (see far below). Eventually curiosity won over patience.

One is my daily "micro kitchen". I expected it to be standalone there using my "double filtered" rainwater. Then I worked out a way of using the catering kit from a temporary plastic bottle (rear right, until I sort something more permanent out in glass). I cannot use the plumbed drip tray there as it simply cannot fit. See the photo. The catering kit fits (just) behind the Pro, as does the 5 powerpoints on the wall (4 in use). If there is an award for space utilisation of coffee gear I may get a prize... Whole area is 903mm (w), 450(d), 503(h), induction stove to the left, single sink to the front right, cleaning fluids and guest's demerara sugar rear right. Don't forget the critical 3mm's at the end of two of the measurements! Weighing the 250ml dual wall glasses is tricky - too far to the right and it hits the hanging utensils.


The second venue uses the same rainwater, however there is about 5 or 6 times the space (bliss). That uses the catering kit and plumbed in drip tray. BTW, the Pro actually leaves very little fluid in the drip tray anyway, so emptying it is not often or onerous. The third venue has "mains pressure" (via a farm pump) RO filtered water - I will use the (mains) plumbing kit & plumbed drip tray there. If I don't like the water's flavour (coffee from most RO setups tastes dead to me) I can use the catering kit and my rainwater instead.

Whether the heavier duty parts are worth the extra outlay is open to debate. I can only say that the Pro rivals the Linea for the solid feel - a pleasant unexpected surprise. I presume the + would give a similar impression, however I have not seen / felt one on the flesh yet. Oh, and I really like the Decent p/f's - really, really nice feel - and unlike the LMs, they are horizontal, which I vastly prefer to the point I converted the GS3's to horizontal. Personal preference only, I guess.

The catering kit is brilliant at giving an "out of water" message just after warm up (i.e. when you touch the screen to start the shot process), however it only takes a few seconds and is quiet enough to not be irritating. Compared to the standard shallow (by crazy UL regulations) tank which is a PITA to refill*, I now regard it as essential.

Very happy camper with the Pro, even though I now suspect I would be just as happy with the + and the catering kit.

I hope this helps.


TampIt
Standard tank refill*: I have to lift the front of the machine up to clear the lip of the sink in this kitchen. Even more of a PITA here. Not all bad, it prompted me to install the catering kit.
PS: When the Pro "mk whatever" can shoot and froth at the same time I will upgrade and stop using my 7000 as a milk frother / cup warmer / p/f & basket / tamper holder. It is in august historical company - I used to use my manual lever Electra for coffee and my Miss S for 9 years, then my 220V GS3 for milk and warming tray for over a year (until ex2 got them both via evil divorce). Having the extra space (i.e. minus the 7000) will be so nice when Decent fix that issue...
PPS: Just to make it clear, I paid for all the Decent gear myself, this is not sponsored in any way.

[>decentespresso]

Whether the heavier duty parts are worth the extra outlay is open to debate. I can only say that the Pro rivals the Linea for the solid feel - a pleasant unexpected surprise. I presume the + would give a similar impression, however I have not seen / felt one on the flesh yet. .

The DE1+ and DE1PRO are really, really similar. The main difference is that we pay a lot more for the valves and pumps from ODE (the Italian manufacturer) for the PRO, to get a 20x "expected lifetime" from those parts.

I think there's some sort of materials magic in there, that ODE won't go into any detail about (competitive intelligence, one supposes). But from the outside, the valves and pumps are identical.

And the DE1+ has a brushed steel front panel, because the mirror finish PRO front panel has an almost 50% reject rate, and that's after we ship mirrored stainless steel from South Korea, because all the Chinese mirror panels are badly stored, and have scratches (it took a lot to figure that one out). All the mirror finish front panels for the PRO that get rejected get sent to another company to be converted into brushed, which removes the scratches (and the mirroring, obviously).

Oh, and I really like the Decent p/f's - really, really nice feel - and unlike the LMs, they are horizontal, which I vastly prefer to the point I converted the GS3's to horizontal. Personal preference only, I guess.

An interesting topic, that...

The handle angle on the LM bottomless portafilter, I always thought was a bit of a small judgment call in the wrong direction on their part, but I understand why they did it, and it's because they're trying to solve two irreconcilable problems.

LM's double-spouted portafilter has an angled handle, so that you can set the portafilter on a table, and the basket is then perfectly level. That's *really* cool.

However, with a bottomless portafilter, you don't want the angled handle.

But .... you also want the "feel" of the portafilters (bottomless vs spouted) to match (ie, the handles to land in the same place when locked in),

and so LM decided to angle all their portafilters.

I suspect the real difference is that for LM users (cafes, mostly), spouted portafilters are the norm, so that's what sets the standard. For Decent users, bottomless is the norm, so that's why I made a different decision.

-john

[>decentespresso]

Shocking Pink ?



Shin and his team are exhibiting in Seoul, South Korea, this week.

And Shin is in big trouble: he didn't tell me he repainted one of his machines into shocking pink!

[gc]

You must admit though, it does draw the eye!

[level3ninja]

John he's just taken your banner of "who said coffee machines have to look a certain way" and run with it. Run off a cliff maybe, but run with it nonetheless.

[Javaphile]

Pink Kitty is all the rage in South Korea, he may be onto something.


Java "Puts his shades on" phile

[>decentespresso]

"Question: All DEs have their temperature offset individually set before being shipped, is that correct?"

Yes.

Parry (pictured here) personally burns, tests, safety tests, and calibrates every machine. He's no "test monkey", he's a proper electrical engineer. Every machine we ship goes through Parry.

This checklist accompanies every machine until the last moment when it's boxed.

Whoops, looks like we forgot to checkbox "cleaning" on Martin's machine. 冷

-john

[>decentespresso]

I lost my sole to UL compliance



We’re just about to submit our upcoming v1.3 espresso machine to Intertek, to finally get UL certification. Obviously, I’m a bit nervous about it

So when the local boss at Intertek asked me to "please attend a cocktail reception" for the "Intertek Group CEO" who is coming to town, I thought it’d be a wise precaution to play nice and attend.

The invitation arrives in my inbox, and I see these dreaded words: "Dress code: business formal."

Sigh.

I pull my only suit out of the back of the closet and pack it in a bag. I plan to change in the bathroom at the factory at the end of the day.

A worry: when I google "business formal" it’s clear that a tie is part of the definition. I hope I’ll get in despite not owning one, as that would be embarrassing. When someone goes to the trouble to type "dress code", I assume they’re serious about it.

Bugs and I arrive at the reception. Lots of blue suits.

I have an odd feeling that my left toe is dragging on something.

I look down: notice a coffee stain on my right cuff.

Then I lift my left foot. My well-worn-out dress shoes have completely fallen apart. Whoops.

For the next hour, I affect a gammy leg, as if an old war injury required me to slide my foot forward, instead of lifting it with each step, like a normal person.

Bugs is wearing heels, so that allows us to walk slowly around the evening, with me feigning a gentlemanly tolerance for the lady’s footwear choice.

I return home and read an email from Intertek:
"After reviewing your design with our engineers, we generally agree that the current design is close to cETLus requirement."

Nice.

-john

[>decentespresso]

Why wasn't Decent Espresso at the SCA/Boston Show?

For years, Decent has had a big problem: our machines have been much discussed, but unavailable.

In Korea they even created a slogan about us that was much used in Korea social media: "the genius machine that no-one can buy".

So.... Bugs and I decided that the focus from January to June was to get our act together and learn how to reliably ship machines at a pace of 1000 machines per year (20/week, 80/month).

But we're not there yet.

Below is how many machines we've shipper per month, since inception. We're on track to have shipped 267 machines at the end of April, which is 67 machines per month.

We're still running a backlog (19 machines, at the moment, about a week's work), whereas I'd hoped we'd have machines in stock by now.

So... this is the big reason we weren't at the Boston SCA show.

We're still attracting orders faster than we can make machines. It would be irresponsible for us to focus on marketing before we improve our ability to deliver.

Once this situation reverses, you'll start seeing Bugs, Shin, Hannifa and myself exhibiting at trade shows around the world.

-john

[>decentespresso]

Turn Junk Into Art



More than a few Decent customers are crafty and do things like 3D printing, wood turning, and painting.

I have an idea that will help the painters among them flex their creative muscles, and in the process, I can get rid of some cosmetically-imperfect parts which are gathering dust.

Chassis parts that have a defect in their paint can't be used. But, they're perfect if you want to paint your own chassis.

I have a few boxes of this stuff, so I'm selling it at 60% to 80% off to people who want to repaint them. Some of the leg bases need a bit of (re)bending, which causes cracks in the paint. No problem, if you're planning on repainting anyway.

As part of this effort, anyone who wants to "commercialize" their artistic brilliance is encouraged to open a store on Etsy.com. I've started a list https://www.etsy.com/hk-en/people/sg...-espresso-mods and will be adding to it as Decent mods appear on Etsy. My intention is to promote these artists to future and current customers, as it helps everyone out.

As an aside, I've recently had 100 right-angled cables made for us, for the DE1XL model. However, they're also potentially useful to DE1+/DE1PRO users who want to push their espresso machine as far back against their kitchen wall as possible.

All the above are available at this growing "Accessories" page: https://decentespresso.com/accessories

-john

[>decentespresso]

Rao’s Decent V60 basket



I’ve been working with Scott Rao for quite a long time, to develop a V60 portafilter basket.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BtHXGdml-6f/

This upcoming basket converts our espresso machine in an automated pour-over machine. One which has control over the grounds agitation created, and that’s pretty interesting.

The controlled water pressure creates vortex *just* deep enough to circulate, but not so deep that the water channels through filter. The spacing of each water stream is calibrated to be just the width of each separate coffee ground vortex.

The end result is low-channeling/high-extraction-rate pour over coffees, totally automated and dependable. With an espresso machine.

Today I received what I hope is the final iteration of our work together. We’re trying to decide on 0.4mm or 0.5mm holes, 11 or 12 of them, and two different inside hole distances. I’m UPSing them right now to Scott in California for evaluation.

-john

[>decentespresso]

Ultrasonic cleaner with Cafiza

Just arrived in our repair shop: an ultrasonic cleaner, which we've filled with "Cafiza" espresso machine cleaning liquid.

When customers send their machines to us for repair, as part of the process we'll put all removable brass and metal parts into this bath for 24h.

-john

[Lyrebird]

John

If your ultrasonic cleaner isn't removing everything you need in 15 minutes yer doin' it wrong.

Cafiza is the same basic chemistry as beerline cleaner, if it isn't cutting the mustard (or in this case the polymerised fatty acids), increase the pH. Metasilicate is the first port of call, if that's not sufficient use hydroxide.

Get a pH meter*, use it to determine the pH you need to achieve an adequate clean then periodically check that the cleaning solution is at this level. You'll do less damage to the brass with shorter term exposure to a more alkaline cleaner (acid cleaners are another story).

*I'll recommend a Hanna, their new meters are excellent and very good value. If you just want to try this I have a spare I can send you.

[>decentespresso]

If your ultrasonic cleaner isn't removing everything you need in 15 minutes yer doin' it wrong.
Cafiza is the same basic chemistry as beerline cleaner, if it isn't cutting the mustard (or in this case the polymerised fatty acids), increase the pH. Metasilicate is the first port of call, if that's not sufficient use hydroxide. Get a pH meter*, determine the pH you need to achieve an adequate clean then use it the meter to check that the cleaning solution is at this level. You'll do less damage to the brass with shorter term exposure to a highly alkaline cleaner (acid cleaners are another story).

I'll recommend a Hanna, their new meters are excellent and very good value. If you just want to try this I have a spare I can send you.

Very good feedback, quite helpful, thank you.

Parry and I both googled to try to figure out what liquid to put in the bath, and came up empty.

-john

[Lyrebird]

I probably should have added that if your raise the pH to the point that the parts are clean in a much shorter period of time then the rest of the time will be spent attacking the zinc in the brass. It's a matter of balance, you want to get to a pH that cleans reliably in a reasonable time but not too much higher. If the brass goes pink you've gone too high.

Also: I saw the machine at MICE (and had a very enjoyable chat to you and Bugs (I hope I got that right)) but I cannot remember whether any of the parts are chrome plated. If they are, do a test run on something you can afford to scrap, ultrasonic energy can cause tiny pinholes in chrome plate which will then degrade far more quickly than you want it too.