Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

[Dalecooper]

There are two models; the 1+ and the 1+ PRO. They are functionally identical. The pro is more expensive. The additional money gets you components that are rated for many more shots and the mirror finished panel. I think that part’s hard to manufacture, so the ones that don’t come out perfect get brushed and used for the 1+ to reduce manufacturing waste.

For what its worth - on my v1.1 de1+ order (which is waiting to be built or shipped), they said I COULD buy the mirror finished panel (its like $65 shipped USD). However, they weren't going to put it on for me; I would have to do that. That's honestly a bit of a bummer and here is my perspective....

All models should have the mirror finish. The videos floating around of most DE1+ including the James Hoffman videos all show this nice, shiny, de1+ machine (since the mirror finish used to be standard). Maybe I'm crazy, but more pictures should be posted to clearly show the brushed finish, which from what I see - makes the product look cheap. It reminds me of a gaggia classic, or other cheap consumer machine - not a $2500 machine. This could simply be personal preference, but from my perspective, there is a reason why I'm not sure I'm aware of another espresso machine over $1500 that has a brushed finish - polished/mirror finish just looks higher quality and more expensive.

Maybe I should've just ordered a pro model, but I'm already at more than I wanted to spend, once I include accessories.

[level3ninja]

It's is tricky. The website clearly states brushed panel, the CGI picture is a little ambiguous. If you click on Overview it has the James Hoffman YouTube video embedded, the thumbnail for which has the mirrored panel despite the title being about the DE1+ not the PRO.

[day]

just wanted to say I definitely agree with this, I assume but could be wrong that they have already purchased hundreds or thousands in brushed stainless though. Particularly with the new group head bringing it to 2800 it does seem kind of unpleasant to not be able to add the stainless for a modest fee at least. I can’t imagine many are buying it and not getting accessories also, so it would be nice to choose which one is ones preference when spending over 3k. Perhaps it could be used as an incentive to purchase accessories, ungating a mirrored option

For what its worth - on my v1.1 de1+ order (which is waiting to be built or shipped), they said I COULD buy the mirror finished panel (its like $65 shipped USD). However, they weren't going to put it on for me; I would have to do that. That's honestly a bit of a bummer and here is my perspective....

All models should have the mirror finish. The videos floating around of most DE1+ including the James Hoffman videos all show this nice, shiny, de1+ machine (since the mirror finish used to be standard). Maybe I'm crazy, but more pictures should be posted to clearly show the brushed finish, which from what I see - makes the product look cheap. It reminds me of a gaggia classic, or other cheap consumer machine - not a $2500 machine. This could simply be personal preference, but from my perspective, there is a reason why I'm not sure I'm aware of another espresso machine over $1500 that has a brushed finish - polished/mirror finish just looks higher quality and more expensive.

Maybe I should've just ordered a pro model, but I'm already at more than I wanted to spend, once I include accessories.

[day]

Hi, so most likely none of this is new thoughts to you and I am no scientist just a former teacher, but I figured I would see what you were thinking about it. As I understand it, once full saturation is reached then obviously any additional water input must equal that same volume of espresso going into the cup. Thus any error in weight would be from 1: evaporation? Errors in input measurements? I put those together and will ignore them now. 2: error in saturation assumptions. 3: difference in tds weight vs water weight for that given volume.

then I started thinking, it should be possible to just dry out some coffee and get an average weight per given volume of solids, Compare that to the weight of water and then if we assume an average of say 19.5% tds use that information to more precisely calculate the saturation point? Not sure it really matters, but might be interesting and could improve the weight calculations. Or maybe I’m just dumb

The "water volume" based stopping is fairly accurate, so you don't need to get another scale. I'd recommend you use an existing scale to calibrate the water-volume stopping with a real measurement and then you should be ok.

-john

[338]

For what its worth - on my v1.1 de1+ order (which is waiting to be built or shipped), they said I COULD buy the mirror finished panel (its like $65 shipped USD). However, they weren't going to put it on for me; I would have to do that. That's honestly a bit of a bummer and here is my perspective....

All models should have the mirror finish. The videos floating around of most DE1+ including the James Hoffman videos all show this nice, shiny, de1+ machine (since the mirror finish used to be standard). Maybe I'm crazy, but more pictures should be posted to clearly show the brushed finish, which from what I see - makes the product look cheap. It reminds me of a gaggia classic, or other cheap consumer machine - not a $2500 machine. This could simply be personal preference, but from my perspective, there is a reason why I'm not sure I'm aware of another espresso machine over $1500 that has a brushed finish - polished/mirror finish just looks higher quality and more expensive.

Dale one way you could look at this is you aren't paying so much for the machine, but rather buying a $1.5K machine with a few thousand worth of software thrown in (interestingly that is how Decent bills it as well). If you want machine for your money the levers and E61 have that side covered.

[>decentespresso]

The brushed steel finish is much more durable and very much less delicate. Quite a few people have asked for the brushed steel panel on the more expensive models, and yes, we'll do that for them. The mirror finish does scratch, so it's not ideal in a rough environment.

We actually have to import the polished stainless panels from Korea, as nobody in China seems to treat the material carefully enough during shipping and storage to avoid scratching it. That's not cheap to do.

Furthermore, about 40% of the mirror panels have a scratch on them when we receive them from the factory, so we cannot use them. They're quite hard to make without any defects, which is perhaps why you don't see them on any other espresso machine (to my knowledge).

Hopefully without sounding too high minded, from an ecological point of view, I can't justify discarding those otherwise perfectly ok panels. I just can't do it.

So, we take the scratched mirror panels and given them another pass with a tool that converts the mirror finish into brushed. Then, we can sell them on the lower priced machine.

There's a reason the DE1PRO is more expensive than the DE1+. If you want the mirror panel, it's a bit more expensive to make.

-john

[Dalecooper]

The brushed steel finish is much more durable and very much less delicate. Quite a few people have asked for the brushed steel panel on the more expensive models, and yes, we'll do that for them. The mirror finish does scratch, so it's not ideal in a rough environment.

We actually have to import the polished stainless panels from Korea, as nobody in China seems to treat the material carefully enough during shipping and storage to avoid scratching it. That's not cheap to do.

Furthermore, about 40% of the mirror panels have a scratch on them when we receive them from the factory, so we cannot use them. They're quite hard to make without any defects, which is perhaps why you don't see them on any other espresso machine (to my knowledge).

Hopefully without sounding too high minded, from an ecological point of view, I can't justify discarding those otherwise perfectly ok panels. I just can't do it.

So, we take the scratched mirror panels and given them another pass with a tool that converts the mirror finish into brushed. Then, we can sell them on the lower priced machine.

There's a reason the DE1PRO is more expensive than the DE1+. If you want the mirror panel, it's a bit more expensive to make.

-john

Fair enough, and I understand. I wonder why so many other machines don't have this issue, or maybe they do, and the manufacturers are all eating the cost (cause most e61 machines have wayyy more polish all around - not just one panel).

I'd probably take a scratched stainless panel over a brushed version but I haven't seen them both in person, just in some owner photos, where the stainless version looks noticeably higher end, and the brushed version makes the product look cheap. Then again, I may receive the brushed version and determine I'm full of it, and think it looks just fine in an actual kitchen environment.

John - please don't take my criticism to harshly. Your product development, professionalism, response time, etc, is fantastic. I know you have a million things going on, and this is lower on the list, but updated, clear photos on the website would help. Additionally, maybe consider in the future, an option to allow customers to pay more for a stainless version, without having to pay $400 extra.

[>decentespresso]

Fair enough, and I understand. I wonder why so many other machines don't have this issue, or maybe they do, and the manufacturers are all eating the cost (cause most e61 machines have wayyy more polish all around - not just one panel).

It's true, there are plenty of shiny chromed E61 out therem, but they're not mirrored like ours is. They're just highly reflective due to chroming and polishing. A mirror layer is something else.

But... we're currently looking at alternative ways to manufacture the mirror panel, because that 40% fail rate, is just way too high. If we nail it, then maybe we can lower the price. I'd be perfectly happy simplifying the lineup and only having mirror panels. The cost is the same to me, actually, since the brushed steel panels are actually mirror panels but with more work afterwards.

-j

[GuyDebord]

It's all brushed, but some users have been ordering a thin cuttable mirror from Amazon, cutting it to shape on the lip, and putting it there. Looks quite nice.

Thanks for your reply. Im now sadly considering spending $400 more for just the mirror... my SO does not like the brushed and I want the view of the bottomless extraction.

[luca]

Thanks for your reply. Im now sadly considering spending $400 more for just the mirror... my SO does not like the brushed and I want the view of the bottomless extraction.

Well you're getting higher capacity rated components, too. I don't know, but I suspect that the brushed panel might look less dirty in day to day use. The mirror finish shows up every spurt that you get on it pretty quickly, so if you do get it, I suggest making sure that you have ample microfibre cloths for wiping down. I do quite like the mirrored lip to see the pour.

Cheers,
Luca

[gunda]

I have the brushed. It looks fine. It's certainly easy to clean. I think the challenge of keeping the mirror front pristine without scratching it would make the novelty wear off for me. But as always, YMMV.

Since I'm posting, I also have a Skale. I've read that the recently-introduced "water volume" based stopping works quite well, but I don't regret buying the Skale - I like its accuracy. I'm using it with an ONA stem. I'd recommend either that or a Damian Brakel designed 3D printed Skale stand if you do end up getting a Skale. If you really want the stand that Decent sells, you can have mine for the cost of postage.

[GuyDebord]

Well you're getting higher capacity rated components, too. I don't know, but I suspect that the brushed panel might look less dirty in day to day use. The mirror finish shows up every spurt that you get on it pretty quickly, so if you do get it, I suggest making sure that you have ample microfibre cloths for wiping down. I do quite like the mirrored lip to see the pour.

Cheers,
Luca

I guess the higher rated components will have a positive psychological effect even if I make 4 espressos a day. My Bianca's chrome is always shiny thanks to those micro-fiber cloths but with my OCD with the puck preparation I hardly have spurts, so that has helped.

I have the brushed. It looks fine. It's certainly easy to clean. I think the challenge of keeping the mirror front pristine without scratching it would make the novelty wear off for me. But as always, YMMV.

Since I'm posting, I also have a Skale. I've read that the recently-introduced "water volume" based stopping works quite well, but I don't regret buying the Skale - I like its accuracy. I'm using it with an ONA stem. I'd recommend either that or a Damian Brakel designed 3D printed Skale stand if you do end up getting a Skale. If you really want the stand that Decent sells, you can have mine for the cost of postage.

Thanks for the offer, but I have a Lunar that I plan to use to calibrate the "water volume" and then might sell it. One of the reasons I decided to change my Bianca for the DE1 is to get rid of the extras, such as the scale and the "looking glass" mirror I got from Craig Lyn. I prefer a cleaner work space.

[day]

I can certainly agree with the notion of not wasting so many panels. Probably not, but is there anyway to hand polish just the mirror section on our own so as to bring back that sheen and avoid having to attach a mirror to it? I have never done anything like that so im not sure if it would just mean protecting the surrounding area and slowly polishing it with some kind of polishing drill or Dremel attachment, or if that's just an outrageously stupid idea. My extent of knowledge is pretty much what you said, https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=314&v=GTJmlXSCD0A&feature=emb_ logo, and almost cutting off my finger once while cutting some metal to create a tamping stand.

The brushed steel finish is much more durable and very much less delicate. Quite a few people have asked for the brushed steel panel on the more expensive models, and yes, we'll do that for them. The mirror finish does scratch, so it's not ideal in a rough environment.

We actually have to import the polished stainless panels from Korea, as nobody in China seems to treat the material carefully enough during shipping and storage to avoid scratching it. That's not cheap to do.

Furthermore, about 40% of the mirror panels have a scratch on them when we receive them from the factory, so we cannot use them. They're quite hard to make without any defects, which is perhaps why you don't see them on any other espresso machine (to my knowledge).

Hopefully without sounding too high minded, from an ecological point of view, I can't justify discarding those otherwise perfectly ok panels. I just can't do it.

So, we take the scratched mirror panels and given them another pass with a tool that converts the mirror finish into brushed. Then, we can sell them on the lower priced machine.

There's a reason the DE1PRO is more expensive than the DE1+. If you want the mirror panel, it's a bit more expensive to make.

-john

[>decentespresso]

New refill kit pricing


Previously, with v1.0 and v1.1, we offered the DE1PRO with an optional refill kit.

With these, you could:

• connect the DE1 to a water tank (Catering Kit)
• connect the DE1 to a pressurized water (Plumbing Kit)
• Drain dirty water out of your drip tray (Drain Kit)

The cost increase for all 3 things (called the "Refill kit") was USD$400, if you bought it at the same time you bought your DE1. People who bought a DE1+ had to pay USD$899 for the refill kit, as their was not bundle price offered. The refill kit was always included with the DE1XL. DE1PRO users who bought the refill kit later also had to pay USD$899.

There were many problems with this approach:

• We wasted many plumbing kits, because everyone received both a plumbing kit and a catering kit with their refill kit. Virtually everyone only needed one of them, not both. And most people use the catering kit, not the plumbing kit.
• DE1XL owners who did not want the refill kit, got one anyway. This also dissuades people from buying the DE1XL as a tabletop espresso machine.
• Many were unclear whether the DE1+ could even be plumbed in.
• There were many more product SKUs, increasing complexity for everyone

Starting today we:

• are no longer bundling the refill kit with any machine
• we have lowered the price of each part by half
• people can buy only the components they need, and not be price penalized for buying less. I prefer to not sell the bundled Refill Kit, unless they really plan on using all the components.
• Previously, adding the refill kit added USD$399 to your purchase price.
• Now, if you add just the two parts you need (ie, Catering Kit + Drain Kit) the overall price is USD$348, or USD$52 less.
• My aim is motivate customers to order only what they need, thus getting a lower price and decreasing waste.
• People can choose to plumb in later, not at the same time they purchase their DE1. There is no price penalty for doing so.

https://decentespresso.com/refill

-john

[gunda]

but is there anyway to hand polish just the mirror section on our own so as to bring back that sheen and avoid having to attach a mirror to it?

This was discussed on the Decent forum, and while I can't recite the full details, the bottom line was that it isn't likely to be practical/possible. There haven't been any reports anyone who has tried it. You'd be first as far as I know.

As John said above, people who want this effect are taking different approaches. I thought about finding some good quality mirror tape, but in the end didn't bother.