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  • A few misc points ...

    Regarding the spacer thing. Obviously you can put a part like a spacer into a machine to reduce the space between the shower screen and the top of the puck, but you can't do anything to increase that height, so it makes good sense that manufacturers would err on the side of having more room between the shower screen and the top of the puck. I remember way back when LM was the WBC sponsor machine in one of the years where they won the tender for another few years, I think one of the things that the technical panel liked was that there was more headspace, so there was more room for the baristas to change dose if they wanted to. The v1.0 machine had a higher shower screen than the 1.1. So every time someone talks about spacers, to make sense out of what they are saying, you need to know if they are on 1.0 or 1.1. Spacers presumably makes a much bigger difference for 1.0 than it does for 1.1.

    I am on the 1.1 and spent a few months trying a few different group components to reduce space, etc. I methodically scored a bunch of espresso made with all variables the same, as much as possible, except for the group components. This quickly became quite an unpleasant chore, since it takes a lot of time to throw out shots that aren't within the criteria, record the scores, take refractometer readings, etc. The main reason that people give for liking the spacer is for bigger body and mouthfeel. I expected to experience that, but didn't. Some of the spacer type components resulted in a pretty significant drop in extraction yield, too.

    Now in order to make sense of what people are writing about spacers, you also need to know what sort of coffee they were using. I was using quite light roasted coffee, with the usual roast defect being under-development. These coffees tend to perform best at low doses/high beverage volumes/low strength/high extraction. This is not what most people use. Most people probably drink coffee where the usual roast defect is baked or overdone. (BTW, if people tell me that they seldom encounter roast defects, I don't believe them - usually they have a poor frame of reference or have a vested interest in selling or defending their coffee.) People often extract these sorts of coffees at high doses/low beverage volumes/high strength/low extraction. Because flavour is the enemy of these coffees, because the flavour is bad. It's possible that for these styles of coffee the spacer results in an improvement. I wouldn't willingly spend my time or money on these sorts of coffees, but if someone wants to send me some, I can test out this theory a little more.

    People also say that the spacer results in a drier puck. Maybe it does, but I'm not going to change my extraction to taste worse to get a drier puck. I'd rather pour a soup out of the basket and have a good shot, if that was the choice.

    You can't buy spacers from Decent, so you can't save on shipping by ordering them with the machine, so probably the thing to do is buy the machine and try it without before working out if you want more expenditure.

    Regarding where you get the accessories, the cottage industry is usually just some random guys that you find on the forum. They're all over the place; Korea and USA mainly, I think. For most of them, you message them on the forum and order from them and they'll organise to ship to you. Sometimes they manufacture in batches, so you need to get in on a batch and wait. Some of the bits and pieces are 3D printable, so you can get the files and print them yourself or have someone print them for you, and if you do that you may have a choice of colours and materials. A very few bits and pieces are carried by decent themselves; eg. Zubing's (the guy that made the The Force tamper) three hole steam tip. (I got Zubing's tip, BTW; too soon for me to have an opinion, but it is quite different.)

    Regarding the baskets, they're important, and there's really not much good information out about most of them to enable effective comparisons. The decent baskets seem to require a marginally finer grind than the VSTs. They also have ridges in them, which I hate. I'd be interested to know if the pullman baskets require a finer or coarser grind than the same nominal capacity VST, for the same dose.

    Comment


    • TampIt
      TampIt commented
      Editing a comment
      G'day Luca

      I agree with almost all of that except the baskets. Both Pullman and Decent baskets choke (badly) if I use the same grind as my VSTs. VSTs love a fine grind and a flat based tamper, and no matter what I did I could not get close to the quality in the cuppa with either of them.

      The thing that (kinda, I have broad shoulders and low expectations) grated was the Decent 10g. I get better, clearer and stronger coffee out of my 7g VST (dosed to 7.2g - my Varios are accurate) than the Decent 10g. I still have the occasional roast (light to medium roasts) where the 7g VST is not quite strong enough for my usual 250ml latte and the 15g VST is way too strong. Sigh. So I use the 7g and make a 200ml latte instead.

      Enjoy your cuppa


      TampIt
      PS: Love my DE1, about to get the V1.3 group. No issues or problems, outstanding service.

  • Originally posted by david.monagle View Post
    If the Decent include page is up to date with what is shipping in the box, the machine only comes with an 18g and a blank basket.
    My apologies, I stand corrected. Premature senior's moment. I went and check my collection of baskets and I don't have a Decent single, just the 18g. I was getting confused with previous E61 machines. As David correctly noted, you'll get an 18gm basket, which is fairly close to the VST.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by barri View Post
      Just curious, how did you get the spacer? I'm assuming most of these addons are produced in the USA, so do most of the suppliers ship to Australia? I looked at the ONA stem and it looks like, given its height, it is better suited to a commercial machine with a large gap below the drip tray. Does it fit well with the DE?
      There are two people in the US making spacers. One version is machined stainless steel and is the more expensive of the two. I have one of these. Because they're hand-machined turnaround is fairly fast, but the shipping times would not be at the moment. The other is fabricated in PEEK (Polyether Ether Ketone) - a high temperature, chemically inert, aerospace/medical plastic material. I have one of these in transit at the moment. One reason to wait is that you need to decide how thick a spacer you want, for the reasons that Luca mentioned - you want the capacity to updose - as well as whether you want one at all. I have opted for a minimal thickness spacer for my DE partly for that reason. Once you have access to the forum you can read all the discussion on this point, but that will consume a decent chunk of time. (At one time people were 3D printing spacers, but it was hard to identify a filament that was both food-safe and durable.)

      For the record, I have a V1.1 machine and my coffee preferences are rather different to Luca's. The world is a very varied place.

      p.s. The ONA stem works on the DE provided that you are not using tall cups. If you were designing it for the DE you would make it shorter, but it works as it is up to a certain cup height. It's not cheap, but I just found it sturdier than the 3D prints. Also easier to travel with, since you can take the DE travelling with you in its suitcase.
      Last edited by gunda; 8 May 2020, 04:12 PM. Reason: p.s.

      Comment


      • I was wondering if anybody who has ordered one of these machines can give an idea on the shipping time. I fully understand that shipping is a disaster at the moment (three weeks to get something from the other side of Melbourne by courier) but I am interested to know what sort of timeframe people were experiencing pre-COVID-19.

        I read that the machines were never sent via email (makes sense) so I’m trying to work out what sort of additional lead time I may be up for on top of the current backlog of orders they have. Any input is appreciated. Cheers!

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          Decent Staff Photo

          Most of Decent Espresso is based in Hong Kong. That's where Bugs and I lived for 5 years, and as soon as they'll let us back in (we're "trapped in California"), we'll be back there.

          Last week we threw a party for our cook Lily, who retired after cooking us hundreds of delicious group lunches. We took the opportunity for a group photo, and I thought I'd point out to you who works at Decent and how they help you get your espresso machine.

          Another ten people work from their homes, from all over the world. I tried to hire the best, wherever they happened to be. I put little cartoons for them, in the bottom left of the photo.


          And an update...

          I'd like to explain why I've not been active in social media these past few weeks.

          Espresso machine sales have been coming in faster than we can build them, so I decided to "ease off the gas" a bit (hold off on marketing), and focus completely on making reliable machines, faster.

          Bugs and I took the painful decision of firing a longtime employee who was running the factory, as she was not able to make the changes needed. We were only making 15 machines a week (3 a day) while receiving 25 orders a week.

          We promoted Hannifa, who insisted that Eleanor be her co-captain. They switched from a 5 day schedule of 20 machines at a time, to a 30 machine schedule in 7 days, with the intention of shortening that. They're now down to 6 days to make 30 machines, ie 5 machines a day, ie a 66% speed increase.

          We've added 4 people in the past 2 weeks, so we think we'll be able to hit 30 per week shortly, and we're aiming for 40 per week within 2 months.

          Bugs and I were really pleased, and last week handed out salary raises to four of Hannifa's team (and Hannifa too), thanking them for making such quick progress.

          Covid has meant a certain amount of unemployment in Hong Kong, which has been good for us, as a rare company who is currently hiring. The resumes coming in are really excellent, so we're excited to have really talented staff joining us, right when we need them most.

          -john

          ps:

          As covid is still very much a concern, the staff usually have masks on, but it makes for a different kind of photo.
          

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          • Originally posted by david.monagle View Post
            I placed an order this morning for the DE1Pro v1.3. I’ve procrastinated for a long time about .
            David, I just did exactly the same and I also procrastinated about this as you can tell from my posts. I'm sure every waiting day from now on will be like having root canal work. Ive been involved/used/owned e61 machines for many years and getting my head around this very different machine was fairly daunting. Anyway as Big Kev used to say ... "I'm excited"

            Comment


            • Hi Barri, I'm back from my "social media distancing" 😁and can answer the questions that others haven't yet hit. I have marked in bold few things that could use a bit more information.

              However, I'm trying to come to get my head around, buying overseas, getting support overseas, waiting 8 weeks, not seeing it in the flesh, not watching it working, being quickly outdated (v1.1 to v1.3), still basically in R&D, the thought of it breaking down and sending it back etc etc etc etc. I understand his business model of getting rid of the middle man and keeping prices down but not having somewhere to look at it in Australia (Melbourne) goes against every major purchase decision I've made. I also like to have long conversations face to face to get a better understanding of what I'm about to purchase and addressing all my concerns. I did notice, however, that coffee parts sell some of their accessories. That's comforting. Once I can come to grips with all of this I'll probably take the plunge. I guess I need some reassurance from someone.
              1. buying overseas, : Most stuff is made overseas, then shipped to your local reseller, where then you pay them. I understand it might be odd to pay the original manufacturer, but that way the company that actually made the thing is responsible directly to you.
              2. getting support overseas, : I actually think this is an advantage, because you get to talk to full-time experts. When you buy from the seller, your machine is one among many that they have, and they don't necessarily use it themselves.
              3. waiting 8 weeks, Despite being a high-tech product, it is an artisan machine, made by hand by my staff, not made by some outsourced factory a container load at a time. It takes us about 20 hours each to make them, and even successful enough that demand has consistently outpaced our ability to make them combine even as we speed up. If you want to know why it's eight weeks, take a look at the queue page for a real time display of orders and backlog https://decentespresso.com/queue
              4. not seeing it in the flesh, as has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum, I'm happy to set you up with someone else in Melbourne that you could visit and talk about their experience with them face-to-face
              5. being quickly outdated (v1.1 to v1.3), virtually all the improvements have been available as software or firmware, going back to the original purchasers three years ago. The one big improvement in the hardware has been the group head controller, which is already been mentioned, your offering as a DIY upgrade at no markup from as if you had purchased it today. That being said, one for, as no additional features over version 1.3. We see ourselves as hardware feature complete at this point and now working on cost reduction and speeding up manufacturing to meet demand.
              6. thought of it breaking down and sending it back I'm not sure if I've mentioned this yet, but we are now repairing Australian machines in Brisbane. My mechanical engineer Ben lives there, I'm just waiting for his new house to be ready so that he has the space before announcing it. As it happens, there have been so few machines to repair, only two in the past few months, that he's been able to repair them in his temporary house.
              7. not having somewhere to look at it in Australia (Melbourne): There are quite a few decent machines in Melbourne, in fact I think after covid is over, it would be possible to have a meet up.

              Comment


              • What happens if John gets hit by a bus?
                I think you're asking two questions:
                1. what if I were not with decent espresso anymore
                2. what if decent espresso ceased to exist
                There are now enough good people working in the company that I am not essential. The code to the tablet app is open source and downloadable for free https://decentespresso.com/downloads and runs on android, Windows, Macintosh. There are several third-party skins now, of which the most popular is https://www.diy.brakel.com.au/dsx/ so I'm not even sure I would be much missed. :-) Others can certainly take over. Charles, for instance, has taken over most tech support, and is stronger than me on the mechanical side. I'm still the face of decent on this forum, but there are lots of other people now.

                If the company were not around, your machine would continue to function, and I expect that the software would be kept up-to-date by the large user community that is quite technical. That's one of the great advantages of open source.

                Note that this question is also why Decent provided a dedicated tablet. The software we provide will forever work with that tablet. You don't have to tinker with it. If the app ran exclusively on your phone, it'd likely break every year or two and there'd be a lot more risk.

                9. Did you get access to their private forum, guides and manuals as soon as you ordered or did you have to wait. I'd love to do some reading before I get it
                Ask them. Usually you have to wait. Before you dive into the forum, though, you should be aware that people ask lots and lots of questions, so there are a lot of repetitions of similar questions and troubleshooting, much of which boils down to general skill, experience, or coffee problems.
                I recently asked our customer base about this, and posted the extensive conversation of people's experiences with their decent machine here:
                https://decentespresso.com/reviews.html

                I read through an older thread on Home Barista about people putting spacers between the shower screen and the group head to somewhat improve mouthfeel, channeling and wet pucks particularly using an IMS screen compared to the stock screen. I don't really care about wet pucks but all of that that sounds ridiculous. Has anyone found that to be the case? Has anyone fitted a spacer and noticed a difference? I'm sure John would have been on to this if it were a problem.
                It is true that coffee pucks with the standard decent special machine will be wetter than you are used to. But they will also taste better and have higher extraction percentages than you are used to. The two are not unrelated.

                If you would rather have dry pucks, lower extractions and less clear tasting coffee, you are welcome to buy a spacer. Many people have done so and are happy with their choice. Many others have bought a spacer and found that they preferred it without. On most (all?) other espresso machines, you don't have this choice.

                I strongly recommend getting the Skale2. But do NOT under any circumstances get the stand for the Skale that Decent sells. Once you have access to the Decent forum you will be able to read why. All the Decent accessories are well thought-out and designed, except this one.
                The stand that we sell was not designed by us, it was designed by a friend of Scott Rao's, at a time when all the existing stands used that sort of design. Since then, the user community has provided far more innovation on that, and I think their solutions are better than what we offer.

                Decent is not infallible, that's why I tried to cultivate an active user community and third-party aftermarket.

                There is a cottage industry that has developed in making add-ons for the DE, like cup rails, tank covers, spacers etc. In this regard the DE is no different to any other machine. I guess the question you're asking is why didn't Decent do these things? I don't really have an answer to this question. I guess they didn't think of them. Not everybody wants or needs them. Etc Etc. I have a cottage industry spacer and for my V1.1 machine I regard it as a highly desirable accessory. I find the shots improved and the pucks easier to deal with. Why hasn't Decent done something like this themselves, since it's related to the extraction process and not just an external thing? Well, partly because not everyone agrees. And partly because they're working on it. There has been a detailed assessment undertaken by the Decent techs in consultation with more advanced users, and something is in the works, but design and production changes don't happen quickly. You'll read more on the Decent forum.
                I'm very much a believer in democracy and marketplaces as providing superior solutions to dictatorships. Having only Decent provide all products for me is akin to a dictatorship. I feel that most companies are run like dictatorships, where only their choices are allowed, and I don't care for that approach.

                So that's why we don't do everything. I prefer to do what I think is best. Then, give people with different opinions the permission and tools to run with them, without my getting in the way. Plurality is a good thing.

                Re shipping, I only recall one option, which was UPS. Worked very well, or did at the time. Not sure about how Covid-19 is affecting things. I get the impression that Decent have sorted things out now so that it's rare that Customs asks questions at the border. I read that the machines were never sent via email (makes sense) so I’m trying to work out what sort of additional lead time I may be up for on top of the current backlog of orders they have. Any input is appreciated. Cheers!
                UPS typically delivers within three days worldwide. Hong Kong is the world's busiest cargo airport and works very well.

                The thing that (kinda, I have broad shoulders and low expectations) grated was the Decent 10g. I get better, clearer and stronger coffee out of my 7g VST (dosed to 7.2g - my Varios are accurate) than the Decent 10g. I still have the occasional roast (light to medium roasts) where the 7g VST is not quite strong enough for my usual 250ml latte and the 15g VST is way too strong. Sigh. So I use the 7g and make a 200ml latte instead.
                That's a good point, and I agree with you. Like everyone, we don't do everything right, and we don't nail every product immediately or sometimes ever.

                Which is why we went with the 58mm basket standard, so if you prefer some other basket, great, you have the freedom to use it.

                The vast majority of our clients use baskets of 15 g, 18 g or 20 g, and I feel that those are the baskets that we do best. Our smaller dose baskets aren't as successful, and it's likely some other companies more focussed on them, do a better job there. Unlike companies that use odd-sized baskets (57mm anyone?), with Decent you have a vast selection of competing baskets to choose from.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by luca View Post
                  Now in order to make sense of what people are writing about spacers, you also need to know what sort of coffee they were using. I was using quite light roasted coffee, with the usual roast defect being under-development. These coffees tend to perform best at low doses/high beverage volumes/low strength/high extraction. This is not what most people use. Most people probably drink coffee where the usual roast defect is baked or overdone. (BTW, if people tell me that they seldom encounter roast defects, I don't believe them - usually they have a poor frame of reference or have a vested interest in selling or defending their coffee.) People often extract these sorts of coffees at high doses/low beverage volumes/high strength/low extraction. Because flavour is the enemy of these coffees, because the flavour is bad. It's possible that for these styles of coffee the spacer results in an improvement. I wouldn't willingly spend my time or money on these sorts of coffees, but if someone wants to send me some, I can test out this theory a little more.
                  Not only did you having me rolling on the floor laughing with how you wrote this, I've marked in bold is an exceedingly well written (if entertaining) and incredibly true thing.

                  Nicely done. I'm going to be quoting you for a while luca from that post.

                  -john
                  Last edited by decentespresso; 11 May 2020, 06:45 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by luca View Post
                    I wouldn't willingly spend my time or money on these sorts of coffees, but if someone wants to send me some, I can test out this theory a little more.
                    I vote that we all send our most over-developed, baked roasts to Luca for testing.

                    Comment


                    • Having just ordered I was keen to get access to to the private forum and find out more tips and techniques etc. WOW and OMG! What a smorgasbord of information including a very helpful on line instruction manual where you generally end up watching a video. From a coffee machine point of view there's nothing like it. I can see why some people might be completely overwhelmed by this site but I'm an information junkie so it suits me perfectly. Reading the posts and tips makes the loooonnnnnng wait for the machine even worse.

                      Comment


                      • Interesting, I was assuming that we would get access closer to the time that the machine actually shipped. John, is it possible for me to also get access now? I think I’ve read every thread and every mention on coffee snobs and home barista and would love to continue reading up before I get my machine.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by david.monagle View Post
                          Interesting, I was assuming that we would get access closer to the time that the machine actually shipped. John, is it possible for me to also get access now? I think I’ve read every thread and every mention on coffee snobs and home barista and would love to continue reading up before I get my machine.
                          Hi David, first please read this:
                          https://decentespresso.com/reviews.html

                          and if you still want to join Diaspora before you get your machine, no problem.

                          barri glad you're liking the manual. I'm working on making a read-only copy of it available to people before they buy, so they have an idea what to expect.

                          Here are two images (start of the table of contents, and a sample page). Note that every page in the manual is itself a conversation around that page's topic.

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                            Perfecting flow measuring and steam profiles

                            Charles, Ray and Ben are have been pulling loooong hours for a few weeks now, in order to try to perfect two modest goals:
                            - very accurate water flow measurements
                            - different steam profiles that work well


                            Why are these things difficult?

                            Very accurate water flow measurements are difficult because physical flow meters are not very good. They don't work under 2 ml/s, which is the range we're interested in for espresso. And they're not very accurate: they are essentially windmills with magnets on them, and the pulses sometimes double or don't happen at all. That's likely the reason you've yet to see many (any?) of our competitor's espresso machines, ever display numerical flow rates.

                            On the DE1, we have a physics model that tracks everything about the machine, from the sizes of the pump pistons, the spring strength, down to leakage through the pistons under pressure. Starting with v1.1 our machines have had an "electrician's clamp" built into them, which potentially allowed us to exactly measure current. This is important, because current often varies significantly when the heaters are running, which effects the pumps' performance characteristics, especially under pressure.

                            In the past, we've been able to get within 90% accurate most of the time, though there are situations where we've been 80% accurate. With the 110V v1.3 DE1 models, there are situations where we're only 60% accurate (that's not the case with the other models).

                            Our new firmware should bring much, much more accurate flow measuring. Here is what Ben's machine spit out this morning. The brown line is flow rate as measured by a scale, whereas the blue line is measured by the DE1's physics modeling of the water flow. Even as the pressure changes significantly, the accuracy remains.

                            
                            The two yellow lines represent "puck resistance". This chart was from an espresso made with a 0.3mm "puck simulator" basket, so puck resistance should be near-constant, regardless of flow or pressure. It isn't yet, but it's pretty close. There are two yellow lines as one is calculated using the scale, and the other is calculated using flow measurements. We haven't had the two be so close to each other before, which of course was the goal.

                            This new firmware should work quite well on v1.1 and v1.3 machines. For v1.0 machines that lack the electrician's clamp, we're going to offer a "calibration setting". Buy yourself a $15 wattmeter from Amazon, and enter into the tablet app what number you get.
                            
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                            As far as steam profiles go, Charles has been making tables of every combination of water flow rate and heater temperatures, so that we can see which pairs of values give the best results. The goal will be "steam profile" recommendations we can make, of different flow/temperature pairs that give different quality steam. You'll be able to dial in your preference.
                            
                            This new firmware compiles about 6 months' programming work, so we're being really careful about testing and fine-tuning, as there's a lot of behind-the-scenes innovation to make these things work well.

                            We hope to be able to release this new firmware in the coming weeks. Initially, it'll be offered as a manual-upgrade for the more adventurous Decent customers. And once it's proven reliable, it'll be an easy push-button upgrade.

                            -john

                            Comment


                            • TampIt
                              TampIt commented
                              Editing a comment
                              G'day John

                              Your water measurement comments make a lot of sense. Trying to set a "circa 1.0ml/sec" flow rate for a 7g single (i.e. 22ml in 25 seconds) was too hit and miss to be reliable, so I ended up balancing the shot via pressure instead. You have just explained why it didn't work very well - Thx.

                              I look forward to the V1.3 group and the newer firmware. As usual Decent is still seeking out problems and working out solutions that no other coffee machine company I know of is even starting to address. Well done.

                              TampIt

                          • Originally posted by decentespresso View Post
                            Hi David, first please read this:
                            https://decentespresso.com/reviews.html
                            decentespresso Yep, I've read every word on that. I'm not easily scared and not only do I like to be prepared, but I would like to read through during the wait. Do you need me to make a request elsewhere? I'm sure my CS username is pretty easy to match with my order.

                            Also, on a side note, the queue page is excellent and gives a transparency unmatched by most companies I have dealt with. It makes an 8 week (or so) wait far easier when you can see yourself progressing in the queue.

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