Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

[>decentespresso]

Really looking forward to this update for steaming.... and even on my V1.0 DE. 👍😊

Just slightly bad news, is that 110V machines might not see much power increase, whereas 220V customers should see a 10% speed improvement over current v1.3 firmware. But 110V customers should see more stable steam (less variation) . At least, that's been my experience.

• I'm now down to 27 seconds to heat my 200ml latte.
• With v1.1 I was at 46 seconds,
• and with v1.3 previously it was at 33 seconds.
• And more importantly, foaming quality is holding steady with good microfoam. I don't want to sacrifice quality to achieve speed.

[>decentespresso]

What's planned to come next year, in our v1.5 model, from Decent Espresso?

The main thing is a new approach to distributing water onto the top of the coffee puck.

We're switching from brass to ultem resin in v1.5, and our approach toward water distribution is changing radically. Four of our top coffee-expert customers have been part of the testing group, working directly with my engineer Ben, trying out about 20 different designs in real use, over a two year period.

Top left in the photo is what a typical traditional espresso machine's shower block looks like.

Top right in the photo is what the current model shower block looks like on a Decent.

The two larger holes are for a thermometer probe that sits just behind the shower screen, to measure the puck temperature, and a "forward flush" hole so that we don't dirty the water path with a "backflush" like traditional machines do.

Amd on the bottom of the photo is what that part will look like in v1.5 DE1 machines:

Note that your eyes do not deceive you: there is some cracking on that part after a year's use. As it's a prototype, we made it out for 100% pure ultem, with no fiberglass reinforcement, so that it could be cheaply and quickly made. The production version of this design will be 30% fiberglass reinforced and shouldn't suffer any cracking. But if it did, we'd replace it for free for you.

Below is an internal video (we have a dozen more like this, comparing each design) showing you what we're trying to accomplish.

Simply put: the new shower block should make better tasting coffee. And it will be retrofittable, and inexpensive, for all existing customers.

[Met0001]

John, this is great.
Love seeing the innovation and the progresses you take to get there. What point do you think you will hit a limit on the design and re-design of things like the shower block, heater or potentially potafilter design in the future?
The change of how you have done to the steam is fantastic, do you have any more tricks up your sleeve that you're developing at the moment that you could share with us, whatever it might be big and small?

[raz49782]

What's planned to come next year, in our v1.5 model, from Decent Espresso?

The main thing is a new approach to distributing water onto the top of the coffee puck.

We're switching from brass to ultem resin in v1.5, and our approach toward water distribution is changing radically. Four of our top coffee-expert customers have been part of the testing group, working directly with my engineer Ben, trying out about 20 different designs in real use, over a two year period.

Top left in the photo is what a typical traditional espresso machine's shower block looks like.

Top right in the photo is what the current model shower block looks like on a Decent.

The two larger holes are for a thermometer probe that sits just behind the shower screen, to measure the puck temperature, and a "forward flush" hole so that we don't dirty the water path with a "backflush" like traditional machines do.

Amd on the bottom of the photo is what that part will look like in v1.5 DE1 machines:

Note that your eyes do not deceive you: there is some cracking on that part after a year's use. As it's a prototype, we made it out for 100% pure ultem, with no fiberglass reinforcement, so that it could be cheaply and quickly made. The production version of this design will be 30% fiberglass reinforced and shouldn't suffer any cracking. But if it did, we'd replace it for free for you.

Below is an internal video (we have a dozen more like this, comparing each design) showing you what we're trying to accomplish.

Simply put: the new shower block should make better tasting coffee. And it will be retrofittable, and inexpensive, for all existing customers.

This looks very cool, John! Thank you! Is changing out a shower block a difficult task? I'm just curious how much effort it takes as a soon-to-be V1.4 owner 😁

[Conic]

Not much effort

https://youtu.be/yU8_tBlisqU

[>decentespresso]

John, this is great.
Love seeing the innovation and the progresses you take to get there. What point do you think you will hit a limit on the design and re-design of things like the shower block, heater or potentially potafilter design in the future?
The change of how you have done to the steam is fantastic, do you have any more tricks up your sleeve that you're developing at the moment that you could share with us, whatever it might be big and small?

We've got 3 years of improvements mapped out in our R&D schedule. The list is long, and I've posted it here on this forum before.

Just a random example: using an infrared thermoter to remotely stop steam at the right time. I've demonstrated that this should work. We'd mount the probe directly into the DE1 front panel. Video below.

After that, we have designs for a new kind of water pump, and possibly to use new heating technologies, such as Thin Film https://assets.omega.com/spec/SMH-Series_Spec_Sheet.pdf

Ray and I are both in our early 50s, and looking forward to having a decade or two of fun with this project.

-john

[saeco_user]

Curious from a manufacturers perspective, how do you manage product changes / improvements so that product re-certification does not constantly need to be done?

[>decentespresso]

Testing steam on new machines

We're creating a new workflow at the Decent factory, to figure out how to speed up our monthly production and shipping of machines.

This week, we wired up the assembly tables with water and electricity, so that we can test the machines directly where they were built. This also lets us test multiple machines at once.

Here new hire (started on monday) Desmond is running steam on 3 Decent machines on once, and check each tablet to make sure the flow rate and pressure is what we expect.

The air conditioning system is on HIGH now all the time. :-D

-john

[>decentespresso]

Curious from a manufacturers perspective, how do you manage product changes / improvements so that product re-certification does not constantly need to be done?

Good question.

From a CE perspective, it is self-certify, which means that as we make changes that implicate a CE worry, we need to pay for testing. For instance, every run of machines, we send the new materials out for independent testing. Yesterday, we were told what % of fiberglass was *really* in the Ultem material we purchased.

With UL, Intertek is our testing and compliance partner, and they file an "addendum" to our certification, with each new test. So, if we change (for instance) a part that is not itself UL certified, then we need to have that part re-tested.

This is one reason that UL compliance raises the price, because it's much less hassle for us to use as many UL certified parts as possible. If we do so, then we can swap one UL certified part for another UL certified part, without triggering a re-test. And of course, UL certified parts are more expensive.

You might also notice that our product line only changes a few things, so that each model can simply be an addendum to the base model having been certified.

One more thing: UL is all about fire/electric-shot/burn, and as such there are very few things we change in the machine that put previous certifications into question. CE mostly adds materials quality (ie, lead, plastic leaching...) to the list, and so each new run where materials change, does cause CE compliance testing.

-john

[>decentespresso]

Decent micro-coffee spaces

I met Rainer last year in June, in Cologne, Germany, when we were on our way to the Berlin's World of Coffee trade show.

At the time, he was winding down having run a coffee-bike Franchise that was based in an office lobby, and which had done well for him.



But he was itching for something new, especially as he was nearing retirement. His ideal was to find a way to involve his son, who had studied design, in his next coffee step. He had a DE1PRO at home, to learn about it.

As we took a long walk down the quai in Cologne after dinner, we bounced ideas back and forth. Nothing came of it, but a few months later I did notice Rainer buying the white DE1XL conversion kit and countersink, and I wondered what he was up to. Then I forgot about it.

Today, a cafe owner in Salzburg who is closing their coffee down :-( wrote me to ask about coffee bikes and mobile use of Decent (power requirements, susceptibility to damage from vibration, etc) and I thought of Rainer.

And I came across this: https://www.bloomingcoffee.de/

Rainer and his son Johannes are about to launch a company making micro-coffee spaces, based on the Decent DE1XL:



His son has run with our design and created something new and wonderful.

According to their instagram https://www.instagram.com/bloomingcoffeecologne/ they haven't launched yet, but soon.



I've reached out to them this morning, to see what I can do to help.

-john

[>decentespresso]

How to get a cheap DE1

Up to now, we've been managing by hand, a spreadsheet of what used or refurbished machines people would like. It's grown to 76 people, and with voltage needs combined with preferences for specific models, versions and scratched vs used vs refurbished, it's all too complicated for us to handle.

Here's what our spreadsheet looked like:



So, I've created a the new system.

From now on, as a machine is available, it will be photographed, a video made, it will be described and offered on this forum. You will get an email about it.

• The machine will be sold to the first person who posts “I will take it”. Shipping and taxes will be added to the price we state, as is appropriate to your country.
• If the winning person does not pay within 3 days, the machine is offered to the the 2nd person who posted they would take the machine.
• All machines sold by Decent (new as well as discounted) carry our 2 year "happiness guaranteed" https://decentespresso.com/warranty
• All machines sold here can be returned to us within 30 days for a 100% refund, minus shipping charges and taxes.
• Any questions? Please ask here!

The machines available here will include:

1. new machines that fail "cosmetic quality control" and thus cannot be sold new at full price
2. trade-ins, where the machine as older DE1 model, and was in working condition. It was fully checked, cleaned, and recalibrated.
3. broken machines that we took back from customers and repaired ourselves, but we sent the customer a new machine to replace the broken one, so now it's being sold.

Please send me a "Private Message" with your name and email address, if you'd like to be added to the "Cheap Decent" Basecamp group. You can leave at any time.

-john

[>decentespresso]

Acaia scale working with Decent

Decent customer Mimoja has "used the force, Luke!" to modify our tablet app, so that it now works with Acaia scales. After a bit more refinement, this will make its way to everyone, as his improvement is merged into the main app itself.

The "espresso shot" stopped automatically at 33.2 grams, with the goal was 34g. Not bad for a first attempt.

[>decentespresso]

Decent tea portafilter coming

I've received two tea portafilters and developed a profile that works well with them.

Essentially these are portafilters with an exit valve that opens at 4 bar. With the right DE1 program, we can control that valve opening time.

Here are the advantages of making tea with an espresso machine:
- totally automated 3 minute brew
- works with a teabag and loose tea.
- Easy cleanup even with loose tea.
- different water temperatures can be used for different teas (some teas benefit from lower temperatures)
- concentration (ie dilution) of the tea can be standardized
- multiple pass recipe through the tea bag gets more tea extracted, as clean water is put in each time.
- you can choose to throw out the first extraction, as is common practice with nice tea.
- another benefit of throwing out the first flush is that this serves to warm the basket and portafilter, so that the rest of the brews are at a higher temperature.
- improved tea flavor by getting the timings and temperature exactly as you want them.

I developed a program that makes passes at brewing, ending up with about 250ml of tea in the mug.

I fill the basket and exit on pressure, and then hold to brew. I then flush at 4ml/s, and then hold at 2 bar, then once again, and then a final flush.

Our new firmware is doing a fairly good job of getting the tea in the portafilter close to 100ºC.




Here are the steps in the profile:

One thing I don't like is that the rim of this portafilter head is flat, not rounded like a basket. This flat top requires the portafilter to be locked in tighter than usual to form a seal, otherwise there is a bit of leakage.




I made a British tea for Bugs first:

and then ran the program again to make my tea, as I quite like weak english breakfast tea without milk:



I will be evaluating several other models of tea portafilter heads in the next few weeks.

The intent is to have a new portafilter from Decent, as well as a variety of tea recipes, optimized for different kinds of tea.


TALKING TO THE MANUFACTURER:

We spoke to the manufacturer of this portafilter head, and they said "but we don't have a valve in our portafilter!"

They made the portafilter to artificially create pressure in brewing tea-concentrate, and that's how they think of their device, because they only have a 9 bar espresso machine.

Look at this exploded parts image:





The spring on the washer causes water to need about 4 bar of pressure to exit. That causes the tea to extract at pressure.

However, with the Decent we can control the pressure, and also stop water flow, so we can use that spring as a non-electrical open/close valve.

We're not using the portafilter as they intended, but that's fine. You can of course as the Decent to make a 9 bar shot, and then extract tea at around 4 bar, which is about what the the spring resistance gives.


FUTURE TEA RESEARCH

Decent customer Dylan suggested an interesting idea, of starting the tea brew with quick, successive rinses at 2 bar, and then using the flush valve to automatically throw that "first rinse" tea out. I'm going to try that out, and see if it works. If so, that makes the Chinese practice of throwing the first rinse out fully automated, and we can pick the settings that work best.

[>decentespresso]

Cheap Decent machines in the pipeline

Here are the espresso machines we're getting ready to sell at a discount, on our "Cheap Decent" forum.

Private message me with your name and email address if you'd like to be on it. There are currently about 440 people on this forum, so there unfortunately is a bit of competition for each machine.

I hired an assistant on Thursday (he's starting tomorrow) and he'll be helping me run this "bazaar".

Over the next week or two, all these machines will be listed. It's first-to-say "I'll take it" gets it, but people who already have paid for a machine and are thus on our queue, have priority.

ps: apologies for the weird text callouts in this video. I recently bought the mCallouts extension so that I can have text labels move with objects onscreen, and used this video as a training exercise on them.

-john

[>decentespresso]

Next zoom call:
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/89749384297
Meeting ID: 897 4938 4297

[>decentespresso]

Feasting, thanks to Peter

Canadian Decent customer Peter Middleton messaged me a few days ago that he was so pleased with his Decent Espresso Machine, that he wanted to thank the team that had built it, with a gift. His idea was that everyone involved with Decent would have a special meal.

On Friday, we normally have a special meal anyway (double food budget), but this week we added Peter's HK$1000 gift (about $130) to make the meal super-extra-special.

Chef Michael used the extra money to make:
- roast pigeon
- homemade lacha paratha (https://www.kookingk.com/recipes/lac...yered-paratha/)
- shrimp wrapped in mushrooms and filo
- Indonesian beef curry
- stir-fried wild forest mushrooms
- homemade french fries
- we still had some money left over so we bought 4 top-end cakes from https://lucullus.com.hk/



We're now up to 25 people here in Hong Kong, with 8 people joining in the past 4 weeks. Car (in boxing) took the photo.

We were able to ship 27% more machines this month, which beats our previous monthly record of 87 machines. There are only 38 machines left in the v1.3 queue https://decentespresso.com/queue (down from 220!), and in two weeks we're building our first v1.4 machines, slightly ahead of schedule. Only 9 covid cases per day in HK, the past 2 days, which is good news. In all this world turmoil, things are going decently well for us.

The cake and food were really appreciated! Chef Michael was really happy for the extra budget to stretch his wings and show off a bit.

And so... thank you again Peter, and everyone who has bought one of our little espresso machines, as you've helped make all this possible!

-john

[saeco_user]

Very jealous - of the feast, and of no compulsory mask wearing or social distancing (I am in Melbourne).

[theonetruepath]

When can we expect the 12 volt car-based DE12?