Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

[>decentespresso]

Have you tried building them the way Niche do with their grinders where they offer a specific batch for delivery well before manufacture and then make that batch? That may let you build them more efficiently and pass the savings to the customers

Niche completely outsource their manufacturing, and their grinder is built in about 20 minutes. We're 8 hours per machine. Theirs is very, very simple. No firmware, no digital calibration, no bluetooth.

I intentionally do not want to outsource our manufacturing, because:
- I want to be in total control of the quality
- every day the same employees work on the DE1, and they get better at it.

Outsourcing means you get different people every time.

Martin (of Niche fame) designed the Niche to be able to outsource the manufacturing. He's got decades of experience doing this, with toasters and other appliances. He kept the product extremely simple, so as to be able to do this. It's too late for us. 🙃

I say this completely with no irony. Martin is a master at this. There's a reason he's done so well. It's a great product, and a great execution.

FWIW, Martin and I are good friends, and we chat weekly. Years ago when he visited us he proclaimed "you could never outsource the building of this machine... well maybe Germany could do it".

Martin has offered countless insights that we have put to use.

-john

[Ted2013]

Thanks An interesting insight

[level3ninja]

Have you tried building them the way Niche do with their grinders where they offer a specific batch for delivery well before manufacture and then make that batch? That may let you build them more efficiently and pass the savings to the customers

Decent aren't keeping up with demand as it is, how could doing them in batches make it more efficient?

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

really big batches.

[Ted2013]

From what I understood they were assembling a different machines similtaneously. If for example they made a batch of 60 identical machines say for the US market and then say 30 identical machines for the Aus/ NZ market and so on they may be able to set up an assembly line and streamline production but I think John addressed that. They do not want to go down that route. Correct me if I got that wrong.

[theonetruepath]

My Decent DE1PRO v1.4 is on the way. DHL claim an expected two day delivery from Hong Kong to Perth, which I would say is wildly optimistic even in non-Covid times. Expecting more like two weeks if everything goes like clockwork, three to four more likely.

[>decentespresso]

White DE1XL models finally shipped

We're finally able to ship 21 of white DE1XL models yesterday and today. Parts shortages have delayed this model. Or to be more specific: we've been having trouble getting white powder coat painting done at the quality we require.



But happily we were able to ship 21 machines of the current 28 orders we have in the queue of this model.

Sadly, these machines are all we can ship for now, as we've left the company that was doing the white painting for us. We ordered these chassis back in April (!) and we've been failing a little bit more than half of them during our quality control checks. I think the problem is that this company lost its best employees during the COVID-induced factory shutdown.

New white chassis, from the company that now does our black powder coat, should arrive in late December. The quality of their black powder coat has been fantastic, so we're hoping to solve this supply problem with white parts, once and for all. The problem with white is that it shows all defects, so it's very difficult to do at a very high quality level.

Dan Counsell is one of the lucky few who got one of these models. He yesterday posted this video of his new DE1XL (he traded in his v1.1 DE1XL for the latest model) and his routine.

Note the monolith grinder, and the smoothly working integration with the Acaia scale thanks to Johanna Amélie Schander.

[Ted2013]

Do you do one that is all shiny stainless without any powder coating like many of the Italian machines?

[>decentespresso]

Do you do one that is all shiny stainless without any powder coating like many of the Italian machines?

You mean like this kind of machine? No, no plans for it either.

[Ted2013]

I meant one shiny like that but otherwise like your existing ones

[>decentespresso]

I meant one shiny like that but otherwise like your existing ones

I had assumed you meant like our existing models but shiny, chrome, like the one in the photo.

We don't really like how it looks, especially with the tablet on top that cannot be chromed.

[>decentespresso]

There's something about Peter

Another Decent customer named Peter was inspired by "the other Peter" having offered the Decent HK staff a lovely meal https://www.instagram.com/p/CEtgColA0sO/ thanks to Peter and wanted to do the same.

So, last week we enjoyed the best "moon cakes" that money can buy, thanks to a generous gift from Peter Neelands Peter .

Actually, we had an assortment of different styles from different places, from traditional to ice-cream-moon-cake (best for Westerners like me). After the mooncakes last wednesday we left the staff go home early and enjoy their 4 day weekend holiday. The good weather held until monday, when it started raining again. Apparently, it usually rains during the "mid autumn festival" so we were lucky.

Thanks again to the two Peters for filling our bellies with joy, but more importantly, making us feel really lucky to have such customers and community around us.

-john

[theonetruepath]

Delivered in 6 days - way way faster than I expected, even though it was three times as long as their weird 2 day estimate (UPS). Never heard a peep from customs.

So far: Wot no flat white profile? ie Ristretto, something like 7 seconds of preinfusion, followed by 30 seconds of slow flow at 9 bar giving around 25ml of pour from18.5g of coffee. So I made a profile, took about two minutes. V.happy with the user interface, and the new Group Head Controller with dedicated buttons for pretty much all I'll ever do is a big plus. Supplied basket is wider at the bottom than what I'm used to, so a ristretto would need finer coffee and/or more of it. My first go using default profile just poured through and finished in 6 seconds, ie way before preinfusion ended. I just switched back to my VST 18g, which is only better because it's what I'm used to. Will investigate supplied basket further when I've fully dialled in my daily shot.

Happy that the Breville bottomless portafilter with nice figured Olive handle also fits.
Finally I've found a use for the Chesterton which I like slightly more than Robusta - dialling in the Decent.

Kudos to John et al at Decent for a machine that looks marvellous and promises to keep me happy until I lose the taste for coffee. Ie ... when I'm always horizontal.

[>decentespresso]

Delivered in 6 days - way way faster than I expected, even though it was three times as long as their weird 2 day estimate (UPS). Never heard a peep from customs.

FYI from UPS:
https://www.ups.com/us/en/help-cente...guarantee.page

Suspension of Service Guarantee
Effective March 26, 2020 and until further notice, we have suspended the UPS Service Guarantee for all shipments from any origin to any destination.

But they haven't changed their software to reflect their real shipping times. Still, it's not bad.

Glad to hear that customs was no problem.

So far: Wot no flat white profile? ie Ristretto, something like 7 seconds of preinfusion, followed by 30 seconds of slow flow at 9 bar giving around 25ml of pour from18.5g of coffee.

There's no flat white profile as I can't think there's an espresso specific to that kind of drink. I haven't heard of ristrettos being used exclusively for flat whites: for me, they're more about milk quantity (less) and foam (about 25% lift on the milk, vs 50% for latte and 100% for cappuccino.

My first go using default profile just poured through and finished in 6 seconds, ie way before preinfusion ended. I just switched back to my VST 18g, which is only better because it's what I'm used to. Will investigate supplied basket further when I've fully dialled in my daily shot.

"Grind Finer" is something I've thought about putting on a tshirt (grin). Our approach to preinfusion allows finer grinding, which yields higher extractions and less channeling, which also means you don't have to make ristrettos only to control the acidity.

So... my recommendation is to grind fine enough that you can pull 40g out of your 18g of coffee, around 35 seconds. 2.25x ratio seems to be what works nicely on the DE1. Hoffmann in fact mentions that ratio in a recent video has his favorite, and it's where I've gravitated to as well.

Happy that the Breville bottomless portafilter with nice figured Olive handle also fits.

Photo!

-john

[theonetruepath]

I want a ristretto because I want to minimise water in the final shot as the milk dilution is already high. 40ml would be way too much water, my target is around 25 to 28ml. If I was drinking espresso I would probably he happy with 40ml yes. I don't generally steam the milk because that too adds too much water. But I'm hoping that changes when I learn how to steam with the Decent, with its higher temperature steam. I really like my microwaved milk so successful steaming would have to be spot on. Yes I know "no pic never happened" here it is...

[>decentespresso]

I don't generally steam the milk because that too adds too much water. But I'm hoping that changes when I learn how to steam with the Decent, with its higher temperature steam. I really like my microwaved milk so successful steaming would have to be spot on.

If you're very concerned about dilution from steaming, I can recommend you lower your steam flow rate. That will give you really dry steam, but it will take a bit longer since you're asking to machine to optimize for dryness.

Here's the setting, which is in settings->machine->calibrate. I'd recommend trying 0.8ml/s.

I'd also recommend shopping for high fat milk, and low sugar. That's effectively "more concentrated" milk.

[>decentespresso]

I don't generally steam the milk because that too adds too much water.

I just remembered a neat trick that I learned in Geneva from a barista there.

You can "dehydrate" your milk by pouring it into an open milk jug and leaving it in a refrigerator. The dryness of the air will remove water from the milk while leaving the flavor intact.

You need to make sure there are no open containers in your fridge that milk leach flavors into your open milk.

It's a really, really nice technique, and creates very rich milk drinks that are nonetheless different from using cream.

-john