Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

[>decentespresso]

Prufrock London Decent Espresso Event

In May 2022, Decent Espresso held an event at Prufrock London. Six Decent owners came (five home owners, one cafe), bringing their setups, and making their favorite drink for others. John, in the basement, showed the DE1XXL model. Thanks to Head of Coffee, River, for his help & enthusiasm, and of course, many thanks to the Decent owners who came. As this was less crowded than the California event held a few weeks earlier, the conversations with owners were much deeper and fulfilling.

Here's a very short video of what it was like.

[>decentespresso]

Preparing for Milan

Next Sunday, Bugs and I drive to Milan, Italy, to set up our booth at the https://worldofcoffee.org/ trade show. This is the main coffee trade show for Europe. It starts on Thursday, June 23.

In the past, we've had a much smaller 9 meter booth, with an espresso machine literally coming out of a suitcase and a backdrop of cardboard boxes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEXLftYYV8o

This year, we're just a wee bit better, with a 20 meter booth, four proper coffee carts, and two pop up banner stands as a backdrop.

Scott Rao will be making Filter 2.1 shots, and he's arranging for the coffee to be sourced and roasted to his spec. Alan, a coffee roaster/cafe owner from Czech (and who runs our favorite Instagram feed "50% Arabica"), will have a cart and be making espressos demonstrating his beans. Stefan, a DE1 owner from Germany, will have a cart, and will be saying "I am just an enthusiastic owner, I don't work for them" several hundred times per day. Paul will be flying in from Hong Kong, via a family visit in Manchester, assisting everywhere. Bugs will be with her mother, sitting in the back seats, drinking tea and offering biscuits.

I'm lending a DE1XL cart to Doug Weber, who will be lending us his newest EG-1 grinder model and a unibody portafilter. I'll have my Key Grinder, and several Niches too.

If you're coming, and have a favorite bean you'd like to try on a Decent, bring a bag, and we'll make it for you. You can also try several grinders with the same beans, to decide for yourself, how much you want to spend on an espresso grinder.

-john

[>decentespresso]

Our olive wood handles are now in stock, and can be ordered from:
https://decentespresso.com/cart?filter=olive

They are fitted with M10 bolts, and work with Decent Espresso Machines, as well as any portafilter that uses M10 bolts.

The M10 bolt is the most common standard, but I've seen M12 bolts on some portafilters too.

Our handles are available in two sizes, which I'd call "normal" and "short". The "group head handle" is the short one, and works on M10 portafilters too.

Based on the feedback I got from a previous posting, we've grouped the various natural styles of the wood into four groups, and we also created a SALE section for those with minor defects. There are sample photos of each grouping, but not a photo of each of the handles. We have 2000 handles in total, too many to photograph individually.

We will accept returns if you're not satisfied with the handle, and we'll refund the price of the handle, but the cost of the postage won't be refunded. This policy is also from the discussion previous, trying to strike a balance between "every wood handle is unique" and a certain level of customer service.

I'm planning on making a webpage dedicate to handles, once the resin handles also arrive, as we'll have quite a selection then. For now, these handles can only be found by searching our catalog.

-john

[>decentespresso]

"I've had worse" coming to Milan

So THAT's what 3.5 meters tall, looks like!

Bugs and I are driving to Italy tomorrow, with 5 carts (three still to finish building)




to set up our trade show stand at https://worldofcoffee.org/

There will be two of those signs behind us, hopefully with "I've had worse" visible from a distance, over the tops of shorter stands.

We tried this "slogan" pre-COVID, at a trade show in New York City, and it never failed to make people laugh, and ask "what are you guys about?". So I offer to make them an espresso, and tell them that if they like how it tastes, I will explain how it's done. And if they don't like how it tastes, well, no point in wasting their time...

We'll have grinders from Weber and Niche, Scott Rao will be making Filter 2.1 shots and Alan from "50% Arabica" will be making espressos from his own roasts.

-john

[JT1]

No updates for 2 weeks must be a record.

[>decentespresso]

What I learned at the World of Coffee trade show

A big reason for Bugs and I to "do" a trade show stand, is to "eat our own dog food".

For World of Coffee, I built 4 coffee carts over 3 days, packed everything up, drove to Italy in a rented van, ran a high intensity mobile cafe with 4 baristas for 3 days, clean up, tear down, drive home, and then assess what went wrong.

Then we work to improve ourselves.

We're now having a big internal company discussion about everything we can change to make this easier for a customer who might try to do the same thing.

The biggest thing that went wrong were the coffee cart wheels. Half of the the brackets we make bent on the drive over. Mostly, this was caused by my having loaded 20kg of water in each cart. With each turn of the van, these water bottles slid from side to side, causing metal fatigue and bending the wheel support.

However, wheeling the carts to the location was also problematic. The wheels are great at home, where there is no dirt, pebbles, broken concrete or uneven pavement. We found that the solid-plastic wheels I had bought, had no tolerance at all for these problems. I looked on in envy at the UPS trolleys at the show, which have huge air-inflated wheels, kept at a low pressure, so that they soak up all these defects in the path.

We're redesigning our wheel brackets to be double-thickness, folded metal, at the weak points, and we're going to do extensive torture testing on this new design. We thought that 3mm thick folded, welded stainless steel would hold up, but it doesn't.

I found that the food-quality-certified silicone tube from our "catering kit" is so short, that it really limits where I can bottom-mount it on the cart. That was annoying, as I really wanted the on/off switch to be at the front, where the barista can easily access it, not shoved in tightly next to the knockbox hole. We're going to quadruple the length of that tube for all customers.

I bought two ramps to help load them carts on the truck. However, all ramps I found have bent perforations to give additional traction (for motorcycle wheels) and these perforations become barriers to the solid-plastic wheels on our cart, making it much hard to push the cart up, as well as constantly redirecting the direction, so it doesn't load straight. Again, low-pressure inflated wheels would fix this problem.

I don't usually make coffee with super-hard kenyans, roasted ultralight, and so I didn't think about the coffee grinders overheating, and seizing, with this beans. We had problems with those beans, and our Niches seized. To be fair to Niche, the problem was made much worse because these are old grinders, before Niche started using the single-bean feeder disk, which fixes this issue. If I'd thought ahead, Martin from Niche (who visited us) would have brought me a pack of those disks (I have them now, he posted them the next day) and that issue would have been resolved.

But... again to be fair, my Weber Key grinder seized 3 times with those same beans. Yes, they really are challenging, but the problem is much compounded by the 8 hours of constant use these grinders got, never resting. Not even cafes have constant demand. To work around the hard-bean problem, I had to "drip feed" beans into a already-on Weber Key grinder, and not pour the beans in and start the grinder (that caused it to seize).

And again, to be fair, the much more powerful motor on our Weber EG-1 had no problems. The Key and Niche are both meant to be home grinders, and they excel at that, but as home equipment, they do have limits.

On the positive side, Rao had commissioned 300 micron sized pore nylon inserts for portafilter baskets, and these were MAGICAL. Without these, my "solidly good shot" rate was maybe 30% with these hard beans and the Allongé recipe, but it climbed to something like almost-always-perfect with the nylon inserts. The 300 micron size comes from a tip by coffee researcher Jonathan Gagné, that the larger particles were mostly responsible for astringency in the cup. However, in my experience, these inserts are much more regular than paper, and just plain stopped channeling. I was able to grind a full 10 clicks finer on my Key, when using them, with much better puck integrity. I got many "wows" from visitors, from the Allongé coffee I made this way.

We had four coffee carts running, and the Decents performed without problems during the three days. I had two kinds of beans: light roasted from https://www.doubleshot.cz/en that Scott Rao had organized, that pulled beautifully and consistently as an Allongé. In the past, I've used the Blooming Espresso on light roasts at shows, and it's not been a good choice, as that shot has to be very, very finely ground, and has a tendency to channel. For me the Allongé, on the Key, with a nylon filter, was easy to pull, and consistently good.

When there were issues with less-than-perfect shot pulls, such as a bit of channeling around the nylon filter, for instance, we could see it on the charts, and then taste it in cup. That was super interesting and helpful, I felt. Coffee is difficult, but it's a bit easier if you see more of what's going on.

Since this was Italy, I also had a medium-roasted bean that I could pull for those who wanted a "chocolatey espresso" from Gramos Coffee https://www.gramoscoffee.com/beans - this allowed me to make espressos that traditionalists recognized, but which lacked the rancid and burnt oil flavors that they are used to as "normal" for that style of bean. I used the Niche for those shots, which helped me avoid having to dial in two beans on the same grinder, and the Niche does a nice job of giving more body to espresso than the Key does.

At Scott Rao's master class in Florence, Lance Hedrick and Jonathan Gagné joined in, which is a lot of coffee knowledge for such a small audience. I set up a split screen monitor, showing Rao's slides and the Decent pulling shots live, which I thought was very helpful and something I want to do in the future.

Gagné suggested to me that a "low mass" portafilter for the Decent would be useful, as he is researching temperature profiling. A heavy portafilter helps correct for water temperature errors, but as the Decent is 0.3C accurate, we don't need that. A lighter portafilter would help the Decent have faster temperature transitions when using temperature profiling, would speed up heating, and also use less electricity to stay hot while idling. We're working on Gagné's idea now.

-john

[tompoland]

Super interesting thanks John. I'm not about to set up at a cart but still very worthwhile reading.

[tompoland]

decentespresso Regarding the key versus the niche. Some would suggest that the 83mm burrs of the key should give more body than the 63mm niche burrs. Your experience mirrors mine in that the niche gives more body. My theory is that the faster at RPM of the niche creates more fines and that's what makes for the increase in viscosity. Is that also your guess or do you think there may be another reason?

(Anyone else who has thoughts on this is welcome to chime in)

[level3ninja]

tompoland The general rule is faster produces more fines, but that's not universal to all burr geometries, or even the same burr at different burr gaps. For traditional burrs doubt traditional espresso though, to it will be right most of the time.

[coffeemachine]

level3ninja is there any reference material that talks about the different burr geometry from manufacturers and taste profiles? That would be handy.

[level3ninja]

coffeemachine that would be extremely helpful if it exists, I'm not aware of anything. Part of the problem is that burr geometry is a bit of a dark art, and most people can't predict what a certain looking burr geometry will do exactly, or even what a certain change will do. Hemro the parent company of MK, Ditting etc seem to have figured it out and can produce burrs to do exactly what they want, but even SSP just do loads of trial and error (SSP are also notorious for constantly changing their burr designs to produce more fines so that they get less complaints about burrs designed only for filter not being able to do espresso).

[StaticBlue]

...Rao had commissioned 300 micron sized pore nylon inserts for portafilter baskets,

Hi John, any link to these?

[lemoo]

also curious about these

[>decentespresso]

decentespresso Regarding the key versus the niche. Some would suggest that the 83mm burrs of the key should give more body than the 63mm niche burrs. Your experience mirrors mine in that the niche gives more body. My theory is that the faster at RPM of the niche creates more fines and that's what makes for the increase in viscosity. Is that also your guess or do you think there may be another reason?

(Anyone else who has thoughts on this is welcome to chime in)

For me, the Key causes terrible channeling when I run the burr set fast, at 130RPM. The coffee is not good when I do this.

But at 70 RPM, the coffee with the Key is AMAZING and just "pops" with increased complexity in the mouth.

With the Key, I extract out to 36g (grams in: 15g), whereas on the Niche, I stick to 32g out, otherwise I get off flavors.

I likely am getting much fewer fines at 70RPM on the Key, is my guess, so yes, mouthfeel is diminished, but who cares? It tastes mindblowing. I had a guest here this week, who has a Niche/DE1, and has been drinking from the Niche all week. I made him a Key shot and he could hardly believe the difference.

[tompoland]

I guess these differences are relative to the beans including roast depth and the profile you are using on the decent. So can you spill the beans (sorry about that) and share what the roast depth is and the profile you are using thanks John.

[tompoland]

Thought about this a bit more. I use 83mm Mazzer Robur concials (e.g. Key) for Medium roast and the Niche with 63mm Mazzer Robur conicals for Dark. The 83mm brings out a bit more origin flavors for some reason. Even with the Helor (71mm Mazzer Robur) I get more origin flavors than on the Niche. But for the muddiest, most chocolate Dark roasted espresso the Niche would still be my go to grinder. Bear in mind that my context is full bodied ristretto or espresso. So if your friend was noticing a big difference between the Niche and the Key, I wondering if you served them Medium roasted beans decentespresso ?

[>decentespresso]

...Rao had commissioned 300 micron sized pore nylon inserts for portafilter baskets,

Hi John, any link to these?

Hopefully I'll have them as a new Decent product, soon, if no problems are found. I'm working with a new company, they're based in Madrid, and there's CE conformity and safety testing to do, as well as making them fit "just right" in our baskets.

I find that the few millimeters of tolerance on papers I've tested, leads to bypass and channeling and I want to solve that by sizing the filter specifically for our baskets, so much less tolerance is needed.

So, it'll be a few months, but I'm hopeful. This new company is still in product development and had contacted Rao and had sent him prototype samples.

I sent them samples of all our baskets and they acknowledged receiving them this afternoon.

They'll eventually be selling them under their own brand name, but Decent will sell a custom-cut version, specifically shaped for our own brand portafilter baskets. I did observe bypass/channeling from the outer holes at times, so I think this is an important issue.

[StaticBlue]

I somehow doubt that these would be "single-use," from the material being used I would think it would be high-temperature multi-use...

[level3ninja]

John posted elsewhere that they're single use

[Budgiesmuggler]

I use filter papers made for drip coffee that are 54mm and fit perfectly in the bottom of the portafilter.

[tompoland]

For me, the Key causes terrible channeling when I run the burr set fast, at 130RPM. The coffee is not good when I do this.

But at 70 RPM, the coffee with the Key is AMAZING and just "pops" with increased complexity in the mouth.

With the Key, I extract out to 36g (grams in: 15g), whereas on the Niche, I stick to 32g out, otherwise I get off flavors.

I likely am getting much fewer fines at 70RPM on the Key, is my guess, so yes, mouthfeel is diminished, but who cares? It tastes mindblowing. I had a guest here this week, who has a Niche/DE1, and has been drinking from the Niche all week. I made him a Key shot and he could hardly believe the difference.

Super interesting. I have 83mm Mazzer Robur burrs (same as Key I think?) in a Livi bench top handgrinder. I'll have to synchronise my arm to 70 RPM 😃

[>decentespresso]

I use filter papers made for drip coffee that are 54mm and fit perfectly in the bottom of the portafilter.

I'd love to see a photo. In my experience, there is usually a few millimeters of "play" at the bottom, as in the photo below with their stock filters. I noticed occasional bypass/channelling and I think it's due to that.

Have you watched your shots from the bottom of a naked portafilter, when you use the 54mm filter paper? Have you observed a consistent lack of bypass/channeling?

[>decentespresso]

I somehow doubt that these would be "single-use," from the material being used I would think it would be high-temperature multi-use...

You likely can reuse them for multiple shots, as they don't seem to physically degrade with use

And probably that'd be fine if you threw each filter out after a day or two, before the inevitably trapped oils went rancid.

[StaticBlue]

You likely can reuse them for multiple shots, as they don't seem to physically degrade with use

And probably that'd be fine if you threw each filter out after a day or two, before the inevitably trapped oils went rancid.

I wonder then if they can be cleaned in hot water, say in a microwave?

[>decentespresso]

is there any reference material that talks about the different burr geometry from manufacturers and taste profiles? That would be handy.

SCA has this report, which you can download from here:
http://magnatune.com/p/grinder_report.pdf

I found this interesting:

[tompoland]

My head is spinning. I will read with interest though thanks John.

That said, I'm fast forming the opinion that the best way (not the only way) to figure out a grinder is to get it on my bench and taste what's in the cup.

One of the reasons I like the Decent so much is that it provides consistency and a large measure of certainty around variables (temperature, pressure, flow, duration) that appear to be lesser known or less stable in other machines. That makes comparing grinders easier.