Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

[gc]

Whoops, damn, oversight <blush> you guys use this sort of connector, right?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]17841[/ATTACH]

That's the one.

[>decentespresso]

That's the one.

Ok, I'll wait a week, in case some other country pops up and cries "Decent Espresso, why have you forsaken us?" -- and add their electrical plug standard to a new order of power cables.

[Yelta]

Been sitting on the sideline watching this thread with interest over the past 12 months.

The last couple of posts concern me, there is more to Australian compliance than simply hanging the appropriate 3 pin plug on the end of a cord.

I've seen little addressing the issue in this thread, the Australian govt takes electrical compliance issues seriously and polices the matter quite zealously, as it should, consumer safety is involved.

SAA Approval Process Australia | SAA Approvals

[>decentespresso]

Been sitting on the sideline watching this thread with interest over the past 12 months. The last couple of posts concern me, there is more to Australian compliance than simply hanging the appropriate 3 pin plug on the end of a cord.

Hi Yelta,

I was told by Intertek (our safety testing service) that Australia's compliance requirements largely follow the EU guidelines, and that Intertek will be able to confirm that we are in compliance (or not). Our initial path for safety certification is first UL, then CE, then applying for the rest of the world: Australian, Singapore, Taiwain, Thailand all have their own certifications (and others besides). However, Intertek has told me that this is largely paperwork. For a new product, and a company of our size, it's not possible to get certification in every locale, at launch.

However, I don't see any major issue with a customer importing a EU/CE certified espresso machine into Australia.

[338]

However, I don't see any major issue with a customer importing a EU/CE certified espresso machine into Australia.

Hi John, without being offensive did you do any research before making that comment or is an off the cuff comment?

I think it is fair to say most buying a machine from your initial batch are aware they are lucky to be in on the ground floor of something new and potentially wondrous. After all the factual comments in your very informative and exhaustive thread some may be tempted to take your comment as fact. At the very least for a domestic user they would find no household insurance, for a business user, even just a two person office, they would find no workers compensation insurance is applicable and in a work environment where electrical items need to be tagged this isn't likely to pass. These are just the tip of the iceberg. I doubt they will have much legal comeback on a company domiciled outside of Australia (your website suggests either HK or USA) without prohibitive expense.

I am not saying don't import your product but have your eyes open when you do and control your risk, it isn't really no major issue.. It is a device which really has no equivalent and so some risk must be taken if you want one, which I think all who have ordered are aware.

[>decentespresso]

Hi John, without being offensive did you do any research before making that comment or is an off the cuff comment? I think it is fair to say most buying a machine from your initial batch are aware they are lucky to be in on the ground floor of something new and potentially wondrous. After all the factual comments in your very informative and exhaustive thread some may be tempted to take your comment as fact. At the very least for a domestic user they would find no household insurance, for a business user, even just a two person office, they would find no workers compensation insurance is applicable and in a work environment where electrical items need to be tagged this isn't likely to pass. These are just the tip of the iceberg. I doubt they will have much legal comeback on a company domiciled outside of Australia (your website suggests either HK or USA) without prohibitive expense. I am not saying don't import your product but have your eyes open when you do and control your risk, it isn't really no major issue.. It is a device which really has no equivalent and so some risk must be taken if you want one, which I think all who have ordered are aware.

When I wrote:
" I don't see any major issue with a customer importing a EU/CE certified espresso machine into Australia."

I think you interpreted differently than I meant it. I meant it "from an engineering and safety perspective", as Intertek has told me that AU does not materially differ from EU safety standards.

I really can't speak to Australian rules about workers compensation, your household insurance, etc, it depends on your country, and it's beyond our ability to dive deep into every single country's circumstances. Maybe your home insurance covers you for EU-certified appliances, maybe it doesn't.

For now, if Australians want to buy our machines, they'll be getting a UL/CE certified machine. I wouldn't think we are the only product that people are buying abroad and importing themselves into Australia.

If you'd rather not have any worries about your Decent machine under Australian rules, then by all means, wait a few more months until Intertek has done the necessary to certify us as compliant for your country.

It's our intention that by summer 2018, we'll have local certification for every major country we sell to, and that includes Australia.

[Erimus]

It won't be long before you'll need an ABRA sticker on...












































































Approved By The Republic of Australia

[338]

Maybe your home insurance covers you for EU-certified appliances, maybe it doesn't.

Hi John, Sorry I misinterpreted your comments. I am going to stop commenting on this as I think your unique machine deserves all the sunshine I hope it gets and don't want to shade it with this matter. It also isn't fair to debate regulation in a country which we all work in every day and you probably haven't visited. Your comments about home insurance being maybe/maybe not though are just misleading. There will be no general insurance cover which covers you for a machine which by law you are not allowed to connect to the Australian electrical network. All electrical devices supplied to the Australian market are required by law to have and display a Regulatory Compliance Mark (RCM). This covers things such as electrical safety and electromagnetic radiation. As I understand this also applies to equipment supplied from outside Australia (think MRI machines or similar) though I doubt they would or could easily prosecute a company located outside Australia. It is probably worth reading these two sites for when your next batch is ready to get approved - ERAC - News - https://www.acma.gov.au/Industry/Sup...duct-labelling

I am sure all early adopters are aware and happy with what they are getting in to. I just think it isn't fair to try and pretend it doesn't really matter, it's just paperwork. The reason companies (including all the other espresso machine importers on this forum) spend thousands on their RCM is so the clients wont have to if there is a problem. That is the reason you are getting US and Europe approval, too big a market to ignore and too expensive to be sued if you didn't. I have already detailed on this forum the problem a friend had with a $25k claim when an unapproved dishwasher flooded. I am sure a device which has water and electricity flowing through it and controlled by a tablet shouldn't give any trouble at all, but if it did would give pause for thought with no cover for repair or serious injury. That said all of that is a non issue with your second approved batch.


PS I still really like the concept of your machine and cant wait to read the first reviews

[>decentespresso]

Experimenting with Steam Wand Tip Designs



Today, testing samples of 21 different designs for steam wand tips arrived.

Our DE1/DE1+ machines come with a steam wand tip that has one hole. This makes microfoam quite easy to create, with the medium-power steam those espresso machines provide.

With the DE1PRO+ and DE1CAFE, we'll have a higher powered steam heater available, and thus the option to direct steam into your milk jug in various ways.

Decent engineer Ben Champion has been studying the various theories behind steam wand designs, as well as putting forward his own ideas, and those of our advisors. He created these 21 designs so we could test them.

At the moment, we have 3 samples of each design, CNCed out of stainless steel. Once we pare down the list of feasible tip designs, we'll want to work with our customers to beta test them, and to see which they like, as well as what interesting designs we might have missed.

I've used the Sproline Foam Knife Sproline Foam Knife steam tip | Talk Coffee on our two-group E61 machine, and found that to be much easier to control than the 3 hole tip that came with the machine.

It's my hunch that different tips will be useful in different situations. Very high powered steam will likely need a larger aperture, such as a "blade" shape.

[JMcCee]

Hi John, Sorry I misinterpreted your comments. I am going to stop commenting on this as I think your unique machine deserves all the sunshine I hope it gets and don't want to shade it with this matter. It also isn't fair to debate regulation in a country which we all work in every day and you probably haven't visited. Your comments about home insurance being maybe/maybe not though are just misleading. There will be no general insurance cover which covers you for a machine which by law you are not allowed to connect to the Australian electrical network. All electrical devices supplied to the Australian market are required by law to have and display a Regulatory Compliance Mark (RCM). This covers things such as electrical safety and electromagnetic radiation. As I understand this also applies to equipment supplied from outside Australia (think MRI machines or similar) though I doubt they would or could easily prosecute a company located outside Australia. It is probably worth reading these two sites for when your next batch is ready to get approved - ERAC - News - https://www.acma.gov.au/Industry/Sup...duct-labelling

I am sure all early adopters are aware and happy with what they are getting in to. I just think it isn't fair to try and pretend it doesn't really matter, it's just paperwork. The reason companies (including all the other espresso machine importers on this forum) spend thousands on their RCM is so the clients wont have to if there is a problem. That is the reason you are getting US and Europe approval, too big a market to ignore and too expensive to be sued if you didn't. I have already detailed on this forum the problem a friend had with a $25k claim when an unapproved dishwasher flooded. I am sure a device which has water and electricity flowing through it and controlled by a tablet shouldn't give any trouble at all, but if it did would give pause for thought with no cover for repair or serious injury. That said all of that is a non issue with your second approved batch.


PS I still really like the concept of your machine and cant wait to read the first reviews

^^RoR! Not bad for someone who wasn't going to comment further.. John must have the patience of a saint.

Can't wait to review my DE1 and read my insurance policy..(roll eyes)

[>decentespresso]

Mixing Chamber Arrives



300 mixing chambers arrived at our factory today. These are made of a medical-grade resin called "Ultem", and they have 3 valves attached.

This part is where water comes, its temperature and pressure is read, and then the valves decide if the water should go to espresso, steam, hot water (tea) or be recirculated because it's not yet at the right temperature.

These were made for us by our Italian valve manufacturer ODE because they're the first production use of a custom-made (small format) valve and they were concerned about leakage.

It turns out that they were right to be worried. 3 managers came over yesterday to tell us that they experienced a 60% failure rate. If one of those 3 valves leaked at 19 bar of pressure, the entire thing has to be discarded.

They kind of lost their shirt making these for us, because Ultem is a very expensive material. For the next run, they've asked us to make some small design modifications that they think should greatly reduce the defect rate.

As you can see in the photo, this is a high precision, low-tolerance part. It's also expensive, at $88 each, our cost, at quantity. Figuring out how to make this part less expensively, and more reliably, will be something we focus on over the next 6 months.

[Downunder55]

^^RoR! Not bad for someone who wasn't going to comment further.. John must have the patience of a saint.


Can't wait to review my DE1 and read my insurance policy..(roll eyes)

Just had to add my 2c to this.....


John, had been very clear as to the specifications and the levels of compliance the first 300 units will adopt and we were all constructively well informed before we signed up for a unit, ......the trade-off for being an early adopter, but one I am very happy to live with.


Australian regulations and bureaucracy don't necessarily add any material levels of safety .... I recall in the 70's when Mercedes Benz airbags needed to be disabled as airbags were not then in ADR's .... .go figure !


Very much looking forward to a Decent Espresso from my EU/CE certified device.

[338]

Just had to add my 2c to this.....


John, had been very clear as to the specifications and the levels of compliance the first 300 units will adopt and we were all constructively well informed before we signed up for a unit, ......the trade-off for being an early adopter, but one I am very happy to live with.


Australian regulations and bureaucracy don't necessarily add any material levels of safety .... I recall in the 70's when Mercedes Benz airbags needed to be disabled as airbags were not then in ADR's .... .go figure !


Very much looking forward to a Decent Espresso from my EU/CE certified device.

Great anecdote re the Mercedes! My father-in-law is a Mercedes tragic, has about a dozen and is always on the lookout for unique items. Something with a disconnected airbag would fit that bill exactly. You wouldn't happen to remember what models they were disconnecting the airbags on? I always though the first airbag models were the W126 of the early eighties, something earlier with a disconnected airbag could be quite a collectors piece - and something not even really discussed yet by anyone.

PS You may have misinterpreted my comments, I don't think there is anything not safe, especially with CE approval. My thoughts were the product is 97% there with CE approval, it is only 3% more effort to give Aus purchasers the same protections USA and EU purchasers get.

[JMcCee]

I have Mercs. The first air bags here were the '89 126 then the '92 124 and 201. As an early bird I'm really looking forward to getting the DE1. What I can't understand is why the Decent discussion on Kehn's HB has been terminated. The DE1 is the most significant new espresso machine in decades so fortunately the pommy forum and Snobs are more mature in their approach to allowing an evolving robust discussion about the DE.

[>decentespresso]

Explaining Some Espresso Parts



Here's a photo of some of our espresso machine parts that have arrived in 300-machine production quantities.

I thought you might be interested in some comments about some of them.

1: these are how water arrives onto the coffee puck, and these parts exist in the "group head".

1a: is shaped like an apple because our fluid dynamic simulations found this was most effective in breaking the momentum of the water as it arrived in there. Small calibrated grooves evenly spread the water out 12 holes (in 6 sections).

1b: is where the water goes next, and these are concentric "Step ladders" of holes, calibrated so that at 1ml/second, 2ml/second and 3ml/second, each next concentric circle is used. This is so that if you use a slow preinfusion to make your coffee, water will be evenly distributed around the puck. Before these grooves, slow preinfusion caused a random section of the puck to get all the water (somewhat arbitrarily depending on surface tension and microparticles on the plate)

2: is a 3D printed "strain relief" kind of "girdle" that holds this tube in place, so that it does not exert twisting pressure at the joint, which could lead to a leak in a year or two. The page on the left shows how the 3 mixing chambers come together.

3: this metal box slows down the high-pressure water when your espresso finishes, so that you don't get splashed when it arrives in your drip tray.

4: these two "mini mixing chambers" (one is before the heater, one is after heater) mix water and also hold temperature sensors, and are made of Ultem.

5: the custom-stamped rubber sheets, with self-adhesive backs, are to prevent vibration from propagating out of the water tubes into the chassis, which could cause rattling noises.

6: we're color coding our water tubes with shrink tubing, to make it easier for us to assemble the machines, and to make it easier for repairmen and others to understand how the machine fits together. Originally, we found 6 colors, but two weeks ago found a source for 11 colors, which allows us to avoid having to use two colors to label a single tube.

Do you have any questions about anything else you see in this photo?