Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

[woodhouse]

yeah move over pressure profiling, it’s all about that flow rate profiling now.

[>decentespresso]

My only reservations would be the durability of the machine and that is solely because I’m not a first adopter at $4,000. I expect a solid 10 years of loyal, largely trouble free service, from a circa $2.5k machine so I’d be keen to hear from Decent about the build quality and thoughts on service costs. I like the fact the tablet is separate - if that goes I assume you just replace the tablet, correct?

With tablets getting better every year, I thought it was wise to keep it separate from the espresso machine. The software can be freely downloaded https://decentespresso.com/downloads and will run on any Android tablet (with a caveat for random hardware compatibility issues of some models).

So yes, if your tablet died, you could buy a replacement from us, or from any other Android tablet vendor. Eventually, we'll also get full functioning versions of our software on other platforms, too.

However, nothing can replace the "test of time", so I think you're right to be concerned.

Over the next year, on this forum, you'll hear about people's experiences with our machines, and can likely judge its reliability--and how we conduct ourselves when there's a problem--from that.

-john

[gc]

For some time I have thought the main issue in the future (think 10 years) for obsolescence will be the tablet and at least, Bluetooth backward compatibility. Will Bluetooth Version 9 or 10 still work with BT4.1? So just replacing a tablet in those days may not be just a simple answer. I already have older Bluetooth devices that just will not pair with more modern hardware. Unless a new main board with an updated Bluetooth chip was then available for our decade old DE1x (pretty unlikely by then) Maybe my decade old laptop running Linux will be my only answer in 2028!

[>decentespresso]

For some time I have thought the main issue in the future (think 10 years) for obsolescence will be the tablet and at least, Bluetooth backward compatibility. Will Bluetooth Version 9 or 10 still work with BT4.1? So just replacing a tablet in those days may not be just a simple answer. I already have older Bluetooth devices that just will not pair with more modern hardware. Unless a new main board with an updated Bluetooth chip was then available for our decade old DE1x (pretty unlikely by then) Maybe my decade old laptop running Linux will be my only answer in 2028!

That's an interesting point to make, and it's one of the reasons we used an Arduino compatible Bluetooth module. You can literally pull it out and replace it with a newer model, you don't even need to take the case off.

Here's a photo of the plug for the module, which is in the top back of the case.



Since we designed the DE1 2 years ago, there have been newer BLE modules released. Some have wifi and NFC built in.

Our v1.2 DE1s will use a different BLE module, from a Seattle based company, that Ray feels is superior to our current choice.

I expect that this Arduino expansion port standard will be around for a long time, and that we can continue to "keep up with the times" and so can our customers.

There's also plans afoot to offer an HTML interface to the DE1, and then use the physical (group head located) buttons to turn espresso on. That should make us fairly future-proof.

-john

[gc]

That's an interesting point to make, and it's one of the reasons we used an Arduino compatible Bluetooth module. You can literally pull it out and replace it with a newer model, you don't even need to take the case off.

Here's a photo of the plug for the module, which is in the top back of the case.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18722[/ATTACH]

Since we designed the DE1 2 years ago, there have been newer BLE modules released. Some have wifi and NFC built in.

Our v1.2 DE1s will use a different BLE module, from a Seattle based company, that Ray feels is superior to our current choice.

I expect that this Arduino expansion port standard will be around for a long time, and that we can continue to "keep up with the times" and so can our customers.

Many thanks for your follow up on this. Very pleased with that possibility. As I'm scheduled for one of the 220V DE1+'s, I have a keen eye to the flexible modularity, and upgradeability, especially of the electronics as you improve later models. eg the BT module you mentioned here.

There's also plans afoot to offer an HTML interface to the DE1, and then use the physical (group head located) buttons to turn espresso on. That should make us fairly future-proof.
-john

Unfortunately [or not] we don't get the buttons on the grouphead. The HTML interface sounds like a great idea.

Have been over on HB as they are drip feeding tidbits from beta users about the actual use of the DE1+Pro. Getting hungry for user experience input now

[>decentespresso]

Have been over on HB as they are drip feeding tidbits from beta users about the actual use of the DE1+Pro. Getting hungry for user experience input now

While Bugs and I were away in Australia, my team back in Hong Kong got started with 20 machines at 220V, and they're all about 60% done now. Though there are Easter holidays coming up (4 day week) I hope we'll be able to ship some of these 220V machines next week.

@gc please PM me who you are in real life and I'll prioritize you to get one of these machines.

If anyone else reading this is also a 220V DE1+ (or DE1PRO+) buyer, send me a PM and I'll try to bump you up the queue.

-john

[>decentespresso]

Robotic Espresso



In Melbourne, Matt Perger introduced me to Once Alike's https://www.instagram.com/oncealike/ Liam Wilkie https://www.instagram.com/cafeenergy/

They’ve built an automated espresso machine using industrial robots, a modified Robur grinder, and a LM Linea espresso machine.

Liam spent a spent some time pulling shots with the DE1+, and liked it, but Decent might be "too new" and Liam "too committed" to the Linea to make the switch now. For now, there’s just "bro love" between us.

[gc]

Glad there's a glass case between that robot arm and me! Looks like the autodriving car equivalent in the coffee world. I'll have a soy latte god shot please.....and stand back!

[CoffeeHack]

For some time I have thought the main issue in the future (think 10 years) for obsolescence will be the tablet and at least, Bluetooth backward compatibility. Will Bluetooth Version 9 or 10 still work with BT4.1? So just replacing a tablet in those days may not be just a simple answer. I already have older Bluetooth devices that just will not pair with more modern hardware. Unless a new main board with an updated Bluetooth chip was then available for our decade old DE1x (pretty unlikely by then) Maybe my decade old laptop running Linux will be my only answer in 2028!

Just like how people who own a McLaren F1 road care have to maintain a contemporary 1990s Compaq laptop to continue operating their vehicle!

It's good to see this has been considered with the DE1.

[TampIt]

yeah move over pressure profiling, it’s all about that flow rate profiling now.

Because up to now you can only use a manual lever machine to even out (or actively tinker with) the flow "on the fly". Which is probably why my manual lever Electra (or a friend's Olympia Cremina for that matter) always made vastly better coffee than any of my other espresso machines using the same roasts at the same time. Those include (among a dozen or so others) LM Lineas, 220V & 110V GS3's, a few commercial La Cimbalis and several La Pavonis all the way down to SB 6910 /7000s and Silvias. I even fitted a slightly weaker spring to my Electra to get more feel and hence more control. Ignoring the minor fact that IMO grinders play a much more important role than a standard espresso machine anyway, I cannot see why an even (or forcibly tinkered) flow would not be a good idea. Unless someone can come up with another reason why manual lever machines do such a great job (even with fairly crappy, non standard sized baskets) I reckon it is very likely to be flow control. Certainly it is not temperature stability... The only other contender is pressure - I couldn't match the Olympia with the Strada the same friend has, and after 3 or more years he cannot either so it probably isn't pressure.

Why do some people deride others attempts to analyse why things work and then use their data to improve things? I always thought that was how real progress worked.

End rant.

TampIt

[>decentespresso]

Decent Espresso Machine Dimensions


A common tech support question we get is "how large is the DE1". It’s actually a complicated question to answer, because do they mean "with the tablet or not?" and "with the portafilter or not?"

I asked Alex to make me a drawing that shows all the main dimensions. When seeing the machine the first time, people often exclaim that it’s much smaller than they expected.

In unrelated news, today we’re shipping our Pro Grinder to all pre-orders. It’s in stock and shipping as orders come in. I will soon be adding an option to upgrade to SSP burrs (both coated and uncoated), as those arrived from South Korea while I was in Australia last week. https://decentespresso.com/pro_grinder


-john

[Juvv]

What's the wait time once ordered ?

Also what's the servicing like on these as if we have issues with it is it going to have to be self serviced?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18757[/ATTACH]
A common tech support question we get is "how large is the DE1". It’s actually a complicated question to answer, because do they mean "with the tablet or not?" and "with the portafilter or not?"

I asked Alex to make me a drawing that shows all the main dimensions. When seeing the machine the first time, people often exclaim that it’s much smaller than they expected.

In unrelated news, today we’re shipping our Pro Grinder to all pre-orders. It’s in stock and shipping as orders come in. I will soon be adding an option to upgrade to SSP burrs (both coated and uncoated), as those arrived from South Korea while I was in Australia last week. https://decentespresso.com/pro_grinder


-john

[>decentespresso]

What's the wait time once ordered ?

Our next batch of machines will start shipping in July/August.

Also what's the servicing like on these as if we have issues with it is it going to have to be self serviced?

In each major market, we'll have a Decent repair station, which will be staffed by our own people (not resellers). This is the Tesla model, and La Marzocco's (mostly) for the Linea Mini.

At the moment, I have these about to happen in the USA and UK, and this August, we should have one in Australia too. My mechanical engineer Ben wants to move back home (he's Australian) and we're trying to make that work, or else I'll figure something else out.

We will also be selling all parts on our web site, in case you want to self-service or use a local repairman instead.

-john

[Juvv]

Thanks John that's good news and really shows that you are standing behind your product which is great.

Are you guys worried a out the longevity of these machines being so digital? Where do you see these machines in 5 10 and 15 years from now , as in these actual first batch models

[>decentespresso]

Are you guys worried a out the longevity of these machines being so digital? Where do you see these machines in 5 10 and 15 years from now , as in these actual first batch models

Of course I'm worried! It's our reputation at stake if these machines are not reliable. I've been told that many companies have had reliability disasters and prospered, but there's a survival bias to this, as I'm only told about the currently-successful companies.

All I can do to answer your question is have you read the backlog of conversations here, so you can get a sort of feel for the care we've taken to design these machines in as high quality, and repairable, way that we can.

But of course, we'll have made mistakes, and we'll try to do the honourable thing so that we develop a reputation as trustworthy despite the inevitable flaws that we'll all learn about. So far, the beta testers found only software bugs, and quality-control improvements we need to make to our build process.

I don't think that "digital" makes it less reliable. Toyota cars were more digitals than GM's, and they were more reliable for it. Reliability in espresso machines seems to mostly be a question of water handling, as well as the inevitable wearing out of moving parts.

-john