Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

[>decentespresso]

I was asked this question via tech support today, and I thought I’d share my answer.

This is a very advanced barista technique, so I don’t expect most people to need it, but it emerged with my working 1:1 with Matt Perger, and it was the cleanest solution to a set of real coffee making problems, with a very particular technique in espresso making.

-john

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In sentence form, "rise" means "if time runs out on this preinfusion step, and we haven’t hit the pressure indicated above, please add a short step after preinfusion, with the flow on max, in order to get pressure to this number. End this short step as soon as this pressure is reached".

Imagine a barista saying "I want preinfusion to compress the puck to at least 4 bar, but I also don’t want preinfusion taking more than 20 seconds to do so". RISE guarantees 4 bar as the preinfusion steps end and the shot progresses.

I know, there’s a lot of concepts packed into RISE.

ps: I find RISE to be hugely useful for preinfusion rates under 2 ml/s. It’s pretty much impossible for me to pull those shots otherwise. With those slow preinfusion flow rates, virtually no pressure is created, and so I’m using time to end preinfusion, with a "slam flow to max" short step to compress the puck. I’m trying to automate what I’ve seen some baristas do with paddles.

[MrJack]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19087[/ATTACH]

I was asked this question via tech support today, and I thought I’d share my answer.

This is a very advanced barista technique, so I don’t expect most people to need it, but it emerged with my working 1:1 with Matt Perger, and it was the cleanest solution to a set of real coffee making problems, with a very particular technique in espresso making.

-john

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

In sentence form, "rise" means "if time runs out on this preinfusion step, and we haven’t hit the pressure indicated above, please add a short step after preinfusion, with the flow on max, in order to get pressure to this number. End this short step as soon as this pressure is reached".

Imagine a barista saying "I want preinfusion to compress the puck to at least 4 bar, but I also don’t want preinfusion taking more than 20 seconds to do so". RISE guarantees 4 bar as the preinfusion steps end and the shot progresses.

I know, there’s a lot of concepts packed into RISE.

ps: I find RISE to be hugely useful for preinfusion rates under 2 ml/s. It’s pretty much impossible for me to pull those shots otherwise. With those slow preinfusion flow rates, virtually no pressure is created, and so I’m using time to end preinfusion, with a "slam flow to max" short step to compress the puck. I’m trying to automate what I’ve seen some baristas do with paddles.

I occasionally do something similar to this, although it's usually in respose to a puck preparation issue or old beans (from which there is too little CO2 coming out of solution).

The concept of "rise" is perhaps a bit vague. Something like "ensure min. preinfusion pressure is reached." perhaps?

I'm very curious to see if machines like the DE1+ will change the way people think about pressure and flow, and the relationship between them.

Still not sure if the concept of "puck compression" captures the whole situation. Some literature refers to "consolidation", which I understand includes the impact of what is usually described as "fines migration": https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60877414004737

[>decentespresso]

I occasionally do something similar to this, although it's usually in respose to a puck preparation issue or old beans (from which there is too little CO2 coming out of solution). The concept of "rise" is perhaps a bit vague. Something like "ensure min. preinfusion pressure is reached." perhaps?

I'm very curious to see if machines like the DE1+ will change the way people think about pressure and flow, and the relationship between them.

Still not sure if the concept of "puck compression" captures the whole situation. Some literature refers to "consolidation", which I understand includes the impact of what is usually described as "fines migration": https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60877414004737

I agree with everything you've written, and would just note:

- there's not enough space on the tablet for a detailed explanation. If you can propose a different word that's better, I have no attachment to "rise", I just couldn't find better. I use "rise" because "rise and hold" are the words I use to describe the 2nd stage of a pressure profile. My intention is to make a video explaining the whole thing, pulling actual shots. Eventually, hopefully, proper coffee people will make better videos than me

- regarding "not sure... captures the whole situation." I completely agree, and if you were to look at screen pics on this forum from two years ago, you would have seen "guarantee" as the label there, and an additional checkbox-optional step for "compress". I really didn't like having two separate controls, both for advanced users only, and when Perger visited me here I spent a good part of the day on this with him, we came up with a consolidated "rise" checkbox concept.

The fundamental problem is that this feature performs two different functions, depending on what the barista intended:

1) if beans or puck prep were imperfect, and you'd like the machine to correct (that's your example)

2) the flow rate is intentionally set low enough (say, <2 ml/s) such that pressure >1 bar will never be reached, and you would like the machine to time out preinfusion, then compress the puck, then continue the shot.

#2 is the case for me when I make my version of "Slayer shots", with a 37 second preinfusion and a rise to 4 bar, followed by a 12s hold step. I know this sounds insane, but it makes great coffee.

Mark @ Synesso made me an insanely great shot at his factory some years ago, which did something crazy like this, so (a) I learned something that day about "received wisdom" in espresso recipes and (b) I'm not sure we should call these things "slayer shots", anyway. Though it's possible to make shots like this on a Slayer, it's shall-we-say "not common" and my first successful taste of this approach was from a Synesso.

-john

[>decentespresso]

DE1PRO News



We've been shipping DE1PRO machines to customers, but without the plumbing kit, as we haven't quite nailed it yet. At the MICE conference, I was able to heavily stress our beta plumbing kit, and found issues with minor leaking, due to the tubing not being thick enough to prevent kinks.

I didn't want to delay the PRO users from getting their machines, so we've been sending them not-plumbed-in drip trays, and will follow up with a package of the parts they need to plumb in, once I'm confident of our design.

People want to supply their espresso machines two different ways: with pressurized water, and from a water tank. For this reason, we "externalized" the plumbing kit, providing two different versions. PRO users will receive both kits, to use the one appropriate for their situation.

Professional machines generally only plumb with pressurized water, and require a "flow jet" to be purchased if you're using a tank, to recreate the pressurized water situation.

At MICE, we witnessed one vendor completely burn their machine out in 24h when their flow jet failed, and they didn't notice (thereby burning their pump out).

No flow jet is required with our setup.

With the "Catering kit" (for water tanks) the DE1PRO sends power to the external pump to automatically top up our 2-liter water tank.

Two other reasons to keep this kit external:
- if your water is dirty, you'll jam the external pump, which is easily replaced. This happened to me 2 years ago, when I stayed at an AirBnb that had kittens, and cat hair got into my water source.
- if you burn out the external pump, it's easily replaced.

So.... photos below of the latest iteration of the plumbing kit. This version hopefully fixes the leaking and tube kinking issues, and also locks onto the back of the machine, so it can't fall off the table accidentally.

We'll be testing this new model extensively for 3 days while we pull hundreds of espressos at the HK trade show we're exhibiting at this week.

Trade shows are good that way, in that they force us to use our own stuff, in a high-pressure situation. We always break something, learn and improve.

[338]

Have any Aussies received their Decent yet? Care to share a review of how it works in local conditions?

[gc]

Have any Aussies received their Decent yet? Care to share a review of how it works in local conditions?

Funny you should mention that......I got mine delivered an hour ago, so still in the shock and unboxing process. A review will be a little while. My first stop is setting up the tablet because I am more familiar with that stuff.

Now, back to unboxing.......

[HorseFD]

I'd love to see some photos, gc, if you get a chance.

[Erimus]

Funny you should mention that......I got mine delivered an hour ago, so still in the shock and unboxing process. A review will be a little while. My first stop is setting up the tablet because I am more familiar with that stuff.

Now, back to unboxing.......

Please start a new thread with your review as it will just get lost inside this monster thread. Cheers.

[JMcCee]

If I ever get my DE1 there'll be pics everywhere. Apparently, even though I was one of the first to put money in I will be one of the last to get the thing

[338]

If I ever get my DE1 there'll be pics everywhere. Apparently, even though I was one of the first to put money in I will be one of the last to get the thing

At least we won't think that your review was coloured, consciously or subconsciously, by being bumped above others in the queue. (not implying others are). Hope your machine comes soon enough, will be good to read a review from the base model, less things to confuse the review.

[JMcCee]

The Plus and pro machines get priority because of profit constraints on the DE1 (there isnt any). Which is fair enough I guess but us DE1 schmilligans weren't the duffers that did the original pricing structure. I'm hoping to get it for my wife's birthday in June. This year

[338]

Genuinely sorry to hear that JMcCee, hope you do manage to get it for her, you have mentioned her and the suitcase for her a few times.

[bromell]

Have any Aussies received their Decent yet? Care to share a review of how it works in local conditions?

I just received and set up my DE1+ today, and managed to get in three shots. Will have to wait for the weekend to properly experiment (and provide some thoughts and photos), but very happy so far!

[338]

I am surprised none of you stayed up and made 30 shots at midnight and then used all that caffeinated energy to write a review for the rest of us

[HBDecentRefugee]

If I ever get my DE1 there'll be pics everywhere. Apparently, even though I was one of the first to put money in I will be one of the last to get the thing

Take joy in the value proposition. The DE1 looks like a value leader to me!