Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

[rayuki]

any idea on when we can put order in again for the DE1+ ? also any chance of having a kit or package or something with espresso machines / scales / tampers etc at all down the track?

[JMcCee]

any idea on when we can put order in again for the DE1+ ? also any chance of having a kit or package or something with espresso machines / scales / tampers etc at all down the track?

I upgraded to the DE1+ so I imagine there are a few other upgrades/cancellations in the wind. I would contact Decent direct and ask. Currently, any Plus ordered comes with an accessory package.

[338]

So when does the Non Disclosure Agreement expire and you Aussie users are allowed to talk about your machines? Or is everyone an Apple user and can't work out how to turn android on?

Only kidding and understand this is a machine of many layers, but assume there must be some first impressions. Even if it is only 'I am still stuck in the splatter stage". Thanks Bromell for your initial thoughts.

Jmcree hope this means your wife gets her birthday present.

[recurve_boy]

Tried the DE1 out on Saturday. Given the size, features and price, it’s very good.
My only issues are no manual controls, weird choice of material for the drip tray and water reservoir.

If everything is ok with these guys in 12+ months I’m probably buying the next version.

So when does the Non Disclosure Agreement expire and you Aussie users are allowed to talk about your machines? Or is everyone an Apple user and can't work out how to turn android on?

Only kidding and understand this is a machine of many layers, but assume there must be some first impressions. Even if it is only 'I am still stuck in the splatter stage". Thanks Bromell for your initial thoughts.

Jmcree hope this means your wife gets her birthday present.

[338]

Big thanks recurve boy (archer?). I take it you would like the water reservoir to be larger? It seems the other two concerns are in progress at the moment.

[recurve_boy]

Both the drop tray and reservoir are ceramic. Which seems odd to me. It’s all very nice, but I’d rather stainless steel so there’s no chance of chipping. The reservoir is also just an open tray. I’m a bit concerned what happens if you have ... wild life in your area.

I know there are manual control options for the high end models, but I’d like it on the low end machine.

Just have to wait and see if all the electronics will last and what servicing the machine will be like.

Big thanks recurve boy (archer?). I take it you would like the water reservoir to be larger? It seems the other two concerns are in progress at the moment.

[338]

Thanks Recurve for your experience. I remember John stated that he chose ceramic due to reading Amazon reviews worried about plastic in the water path. I am sure there is some reason, probably like cost, why stainless wasn't chosen.

[>decentespresso]

Both the drop tray and reservoir are ceramic. Which seems odd to me. It’s all very nice, but I’d rather stainless steel so there’s no chance of chipping. The reservoir is also just an open tray. I’m a bit concerned what happens if you have ... wild life in your area.

I've not yet announced it, but we're working on a stainless steel lid, very much like what you'd find on a frying pan, for people who would prefer to cover their water tanks further. Some photos below. It'll be available as an optional accessory. It does slow down water re-filling to use it, but it's a better solution than asking people to plastic wrap the water tank (which works, but lacks longevity).

Thanks Recurve for your experience. I remember John stated that he chose ceramic due to reading Amazon reviews worried about plastic in the water path. I am sure there is some reason, probably like cost, why stainless wasn't chosen.

Stainless steel could color the taste of water (a "metallic taste"), and so that made it not acceptable to me. Ceramic doesn't have any effect on water taste, and it's a material that (unless you drop it) won't change with age.

We are using very high fire temperature porcelain, which you'll have a very hard time chipping. In fact, drilling these to make them plumbed requires diamond tipped bits, as the porcelain we use is the same as floor tiles, and this stuff is really, really hard and durable.

That being said, the water tank simply slides in and water is sucked up. If you want to use a different water vessel, you are welcome to use whatever you like. I've used a lasagna baking dish as well as a stainless steel catering pan.

-john

[JMcCee]

Both the drop tray and reservoir are ceramic. Which seems odd to me. It’s all very nice, but I’d rather stainless steel so there’s no chance of chipping. The reservoir is also just an open tray. I’m a bit concerned what happens if you have ... wild life in your area.

I know there are manual control options for the high end models, but I’d like it on the low end machine.

Just have to wait and see if all the electronics will last and what servicing the machine will be like.

There was a dicussion a couple of years ago about the drip tray and reservoir material. I cant recall the exact narrative but it would be interesting to go back and have a read.

Any prosumer machine reservoir is open no? But I'll take your point about wildlife and keep the roo's and echidnas at bay

[338]

JMcCee, by the look of John's diagram it seems as if it is the whole top of the reservoir is open, about 200mm x 200mm, where by comparison my molded plastic reservoir in my machine has a 30mm circular cut out. I can see the shock value for Recurve, about 400 cm2 versus 7 cm2 of exposed area.

[>decentespresso]

Walking before you can run



A little over 3 weeks ago, I reported that we'd jumped from making 5 espresso machines at once to 20 at once. It took us 8 days to do so, which was a big speedup. We also had just brought in 5 new employees to help build, where previously we had 2 people fulltime on building (and several engineers helping part-time).

Unfortunately, I soon learned that I had pushed too hard, to soon, to speed things up. We quickly discovered that 12 of the 20 machines (60%) had some sort of problem and had to be repaired.

That took us another 11 days so that it took us 21 days to build 20 machines, with the last machine being finally repaired today (that last one took two electrical engineers, 3 days to figure out).

If you're interested in the gory details, below I detail all the little things we've learned in building the past 20 machines.

One procedure change we're making is to have each person do fewer things so that we have less variation. One person=one assembly task, for now.

When I was given a tour of Nuova Simonelli's factory, I was told that the newest employees are placed at the start of the assembly line. The most experienced go at the end. Now I understand why.

Part of the problem was adding so many new people. Some of them did things in a new way, that caused a new problem.

Here are the gory details, for those who want to know:

(1) one person tightened the screws on a particular PC board much tighter than needed, causing microfractures in the PC board, which were exposed by our 1700 volt safety test. We now use soft plastic washers on the PC boards, never tighten by hand, and always use a verified torque setting on an electric screwdriver.

(2) on some machines, during assembly the power supply rubbed against the legs, scratching them. We now cut a piece of thick yellow electrical tape and place it on the leg to prevent scratching.

(3) the silicone o-rings that seal the water connections are quite vulnerable to tearing. If you use tweezers to insert them, unless you're really skilled, you can easily nick the o-ring, which shows up as a water leak under pressure. 40% of our "mixing chambers" had some sort of leak due to this.

(4) the metal clips that hold the water tubes in place are really convenient. However: we found a slight problem. Most other espresso machines use plastic connectors with these clips. I was worried about heat and longevity, so I had ours made of metal. Unfortunately, the reduced friction of "metal clip on metal connector" means that the clips now slide too easily, and can fall out, causing a water leak. We're designing our own new clips to fit tighter and bending them slightly to hold them in.

(5) if any wire is not tucked in and pulled tight, you run the risk of scrapping the insulation off the wire when you put the case on.

(6) the water level sensor has a cable with a double-locking connector. However, if you don't push it in far enough, only one side locks, and with each lift of the water lever, the cable comes slightly more out. This causes the machine to occasionally read "out of water" when it isn't. We now have a 2nd person check that this cable is pushed in and double locked.

(7) we decided to wire all machines to both pass UL and EU safety standards. That requires both thermal fuses and a thermostat. Unfortunately, that also means that electricity has 3 safety connections it has to pass through to drive the pump. That's 3 more opportunities for a loose connection. We're going to "cold crimp" the thermostats to the power cable using a special machine we've bought, instead of using an insulated spade connector. This will remove one extra "hop" of complexity.

Not quality related, but we're now spacing out each machine more on the tables, and putting each into a yellow nylon box. This allows us to rotate them easier, easing back strain. We're also putting an articulated light permanently above each machine so my staff can see in better.



What's next?

Instead of switching back to 220V machines, we're going to make another run of 110V machines after these are done (probably starting tomorrow). The idea is to "change less stuff". We're going to make 40 machines at a time so that each person becomes more expert at their job. We're expanding from 2 to 5 tables so that visibility is better.

With each iteration, we discover new ways to do things incorrectly. Hopefully, with time, we'll get less good at that.

[gc]

For some reason I haven't been getting email notifications here for a while.So just checked in since my last post. I'm having some problems with either me, or the DE1+ - not sure which at this stage, but will report back when I get it sorted and everything works OK. Hopefully, just issues with early release model.

[>decentespresso]

For some reason I haven't been getting email notifications here for a while.So just checked in since my last post. I'm having some problems with either me, or the DE1+ - not sure which at this stage, but will report back when I get it sorted and everything works OK. Hopefully, just issues with early release model.

Hi Gc, come onto the "Decent Diaspora" basecamp group, to which you should have been invited, and please post your issues there. We'll sort you, regardless of whether the problem is you or the tech.

-john

[>decentespresso]

Calibrating "stop at weight"



For those of you who have bought a bluetooth "Skale" from us, your DE1+s can automatically stop your espresso making when a goal weight is reached.

However, you have probably noticed that the final weight of the shot is a few grams off from the weight you asked for.

The reason for this is that after the STOP button is "pressed for you", there is still residual pressure and water in the group, that continues to pour into the cup.

Exactly how much more goes into your cup after the STOP button depends on a number of factors:
- the pressure that was in place when the shot was stopped
- the flow rate at the time of stopping
- your dose weight and grind size
- some delay between water entering the group and eventually causing a weight increase on the scale
- basket size (and thus, hole size)
- uncertainty on the scale, due to espresso droplets causing "sensor noise" (or "jitter")

I had factory set the DE1+ to stop at 75% of the goal weight you set. I now think that's a few percentage points too soon, and have changed the default to 80%.

However, it's unlikely that this 80% number will be "just perfect" for you, so I now allow you to calibrate the "Stop at weight" feature to your liking.

To do so, go to Settings->Machine->Calibrate, and tap on the scroll bar. It allows a setting between 60% and 100%.

The beta testers suggested an auto calibration approach, and that's a possibility for the future. However, as you change programs, doses, baskets, this auto-calibration will be off. It's not an easy problem to "solve", though I think I've seen a new pro machine which claims to have an "auto calibration" feature now.

This video from James Hoffmann, about calibrating this exact same thing on the Black Eagle, illustrates some of the issues. It's reassuring that this venerable machine has the same issue (though Simonelli decided to calibrate in grams, not percentage).

The new tablet software, that I will post shortly, has this feature.

-john

[RexChan]

Hi Decent Espresso, I believe the La Marzocco Strada AV has this feature: I'm new to espresso/coffee and have been watching Chris Baca's YouTube videos, and there's a video where LM rep explains LM profiled 1000s of shots to predict during the shot how each one will go, including drips at the end.