Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

[>decentespresso]

I was blown away this morning by a simple experiment someone had done, comparing three different flow profile outputs, on the private Decent forum. It had taken me many months to understand the same phenomenon on the Portaspresso, and they had communicated much of the same learning in a set of diagrams that too 2 minutes to read.

While the "Decent Diaspora" forum is for owners-only, the discussion there is not in any way meant to be secret. I'm reposting the message @bromell is referring to, where DE1+ owner Ed Laufer did a series of experiments to better understand the impact of preinfusion flow rate on the resulting drink.

Because everyone on the Diaspora forum has the same espresso machine, and because that machine provides good control and visual feedback, we're finding that the DE1+ community is engaging in a very vigorous and rapid type of "coffee science experimentation", which isn't currently possible elsewhere.

This is a side-benefit of owning a DE1+, and it was my hope that this would happen. It's also one of the reasons why I didn't want to make a less-capable (cheaper) model, because that would be splitting the (Decent) community.

-john



From: Ed Laufer
Following up on your puck compression info, I tried a little experiment. I've been pulling flow shots with moderately slow preinfusions of 2.5ml/s in order to allow the center of my puck to completely saturate, and extracting at 1.5ml/s, which comes out closer to 2ml/s in reality (19-20s to pull 35g). The shots have pulled very nicely and I'm getting some sweet flavors out. However I was struck by a few things. This is a roast I've used before (Redbird espresso - 'northern Italian roast') and flavorwise I previously was annoyed by the distinct slightly bitter roast flavors coming through. However these overtones were gone with this profile. I also am consistently peaking at around 4bar during the pour phase, and the ramp up to pressure is slow and takes about 22-24s to get there. I have timed out a few times and the 4bar bump was engaged, although I've been able to tweak the timer so that it barely gives a compression boost.

So based on your comments about the speed of compression, I decided to pull exactly the same shot, changing only the flow rate during preinfusion, to see if that compressed faster, and how it would alter the flavor. My first try I preinfused at 3.0ml/s. Unsurprisingly the puck saturated more quickly. The compression slope was also a bit steeper, and the compression bump was not needed. Strikingly my peak pressure jumped from 4 to almost 9bar! In the cup, those harsh roast overtones were back.

Reasoning that I might be able to control peak pressure simply by subtle preinfusion rate modulation, I next pulled a shot preinfusing at 2.7ml/s. I got the expected intermediate preinfusion/compression kinetics. This time pressure peaked at 5.5bar. The bitterness was still there, but much more subtle. I'm really surprised by how much this subtle change in only the preinfusion parameters has affected the execution of this flow profile. Certainly worth more experimentation.

Here is a composite of the charts for those three shots, arranged in preinfusion rate order. Interestingly I got that end of shot flow to zero bug again, on the 2.7ml/s shot. The actual end of the pour is indicated.

[Erimus]

This is a side-benefit of owning a DE1+, and it was my hope that this would happen. It's also one of the reasons why I didn't want to make a less-capable (cheaper) model, because that would be splitting the (Decent) community.

So does this mean that the basic DE1 will not be produced again?

[matth3wh]

So does this mean that the basic DE1 will not be produced again?

Think I’ve seen it written / announced that DE will only be producing the DE1+ and Pro+ and eventually Cafe models.

I believe DE1 peeps got the option to upgrade to + or refund.

Hope that helps.

[zeezaw]

While the "Decent Diaspora" forum is for owners-only, the discussion there is not in any way meant to be secret.

I have to say that it irks me somewhat that, after having presumably benefitted from the exposure, discussions, and perhaps even advice given on a number of public forums over the years, you have then moved the discussion behind closed doors.

What is your take on this, @decentespresso?

[Erimus]

Think I’ve seen it written / announced that DE will only be producing the DE1+ and Pro+ and eventually Cafe models.

I believe DE1 peeps got the option to upgrade to + or refund.

Hope that helps.

He says somewhere on the thread that if they ever get ahead, they may do some basic one's again. However, reading the last statement from Decent Espresso it seems certain that they are finished with lower end machines and are just interested in higher end and cafes now.

[gc]

I have to say that it irks me somewhat that, after having presumably benefitted from the exposure, discussions, and perhaps even advice given on a number of public forums over the years, you have then moved the discussion behind closed doors.

What is your take on this, @decentespresso?

I'm just a (very) new owner of a DE1+ and thought that I would be sharing my views on this forum within the week of setting up my new machine. Despite being a long time home barista (20yrs) I quickly realised I had a LOT to learn about making coffee with this very versatile machine and that I would just embarass myself sharing what little I knew at this early stage.....and I was someone who is KEEN to share! I imagine there are quite a few other new owners experiencing similar reluctance as they gradually understand using this very different machine. The owners forum on BaseCamp for me is an early learning space and as I attain a little mastery you can be sure I will be contributing to discussions on open forums like this one.

Meanwhile, I'm really happy to answer any questions from my point of view as a user if thats any use to you or anyone else here. For example, I have changed the coffee I use completely to a lighter roast and no longer use any sugar in any coffee because the DE1+ delivers me a more balanced flavour with fuller mouthfeel. Better than I had ever made with my old HX single boiler machine. And that's before I learn the subtleties of tweaking pressure, flow, and time!

bromell's review above seemed pretty accurate to me and reflected my own experience with the DE1+ so far.

[>decentespresso]

The next run of machines is now available

The next five hundred DE1PRO machines are up for sale now, as well as two hundred DE1CAFE machines.
https://decentespresso.com/

[JojoS]

The next five hundred DE1PRO machines are up for sale now, as well as two hundred DE1CAFE machines.
https://decentespresso.com/

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Time to start posting on the Extreme Machines section.

[>decentespresso]

A bit more reliable



We're becoming a bit more reliable at building espresso machines

So far, only one of last week's batch of 20 machines has had any problems, which is good news. The week before, it was 3 machines, and before that, 11 machines had issues.

The bad news is that I've only ever had one person (Tinny) on the "final assembly, clean up and pack up for shipping" job, and until recently that's been ... shall we say... "a part time job" (cough, cough).

Jennifer is now helping Tinny get this backlog of 9 perfectly-healthy machines out the door and out of the way.



In this second photo, you can see our "hospital" where sick machines go to get healed. At the moment, the hospital only has one espresso machine in it. It's the one place in the factory where I'm happy to see nobody working.

-john

[bromell]

[EDIT Apologies, meant to quote zeezaw's post above]

I appreciate your viewpoint, but also consider the perspective of new owners (approx only 100 globally) of a complex machine without an existing pool of knowledge to draw from.

If each geographic group of owners split into their normal/regular forum of choice, it would be very hard for Decent to provide the support they do, and for owners to learn from each other. I'm glad it exists.

Having said that, my hope is that the discussions will migrate off over time, as owners no longer require the support. There is a lot owners of other machines can learn from what's being experimented on with the DE1+ and vice versa.

[bromell]

Bromell, you mention the software has stabilised over the last month, is that due to updates or machine learning? I can imagine updates are coming pretty regularly at this early stage and with a base of users now out there.

It's software defect fixes and enhancements. It's dropped from multiple releases a week to once every 2-4 weeks. The most recent update was 100% enhancements, I believe.

The learning algos continue to only need a shot to dial themselves in.

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

[EDIT Apologies, meant to quote zeezaw's post above]

I appreciate your viewpoint, but also consider the perspective of new owners (approx only 100 globally) of a complex machine without an existing pool of knowledge to draw from.

If each geographic group of owners split into their normal/regular forum of choice, it would be very hard for Decent to provide the support they do, and for owners to learn from each other. I'm glad it exists.

Having said that, my hope is that the discussions will migrate off over time, as owners no longer require the support. There is a lot owners of other machines can learn from what's being experimented on with the DE1+ and vice versa.

Yeh, that explains why an owners forum exists...but not why it is invisible to everyone else (e.g. prospective owners). I can certainly understand why posting to that forum might be restricted to registered owners.

[Erimus]

It should be open for anyone to read. It's like an elite owners club at present.

[bromell]

Yeh, that explains why an owners forum exists...but not why it is invisible to everyone else (e.g. prospective owners). I can certainly understand why posting to that forum might be restricted to registered owners.

The forum is on Basecamp, the team project collaboration software, not pure forum software like snobs uses. I'm not sure why it was chosen, but I don't think it's possible to enable public access? John would need to answer why this call was made.

I do agree with you that prospective owners would get value from a lot of what's on there.

[CafeLotta]

The next five hundred DE1PRO machines are up for sale now, as well as two hundred DE1CAFE machines.
https://decentespresso.com/

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Unless I missed it, may be time to become a site sponsor?