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  • #16
    Hi Steven

    One of our popular-with-the-locals cafe just switched from Vittoria (everything like you describe = Faema Ambassador + Mazzer SJ) to Pablo & Rusty with Victoria Aduino machine and Mythos grinders. The owner who I'm on speaking terms with is very happy since the change. The coffee is heaps heaps better and they're using great equipment. Staff are happy with the change. Consistency is better. They gave their cafe a lick of paint and colour while they were at it too. The change in look and fresh paint and new machine signals a positive change to your customers!

    Did I stop as soon as I saw the change and go visit them to get a coffee? Yes!
    Have I gone back for more coffees since they changed? Yes!
    Do I actually have hope for decent coffee in our town now and can now recommend them to visitors? Yes!
    Am I like a politician now, asking and answering my own questions? Yes :-)

    Bottom line is you need to be happy with what you're making and proud of the coffee you're serving.

    In my experience Vittoria has been drinkable from a few cafes as milky coffees but I've never liked the coffee enough to say to anyone "go there and have a nice cup of coffee." Sure there were heaps of regulars who kept going there but if you're keen to try something new I say go for it. :-)

    Definitely shop around like GunBarista mentioned and approach some good coffee roasters to see what they can do on the equipment side for you.
    Originally posted by GunBarista View Post
    If you can't buy the equipment outright or via lease then approach a reputable coffee supplier and strike a deal with them.
    While you're considering tasting coffees, it's worth sampling some of Andy's award winning roasted beans while you're at it - Coffee Snobs Bean Bay.
    I highly recommend trying the Fiefy's Latte Art - Organic if you're serving up lots of milk based coffees. Great crema and taste.

    Also worth doing once in a while. Go and have a coffee from your cafe-neighbours (wear a cap?) and see what standard the coffee bar is set at in the area. :-)
    Last edited by matth3wh; 20 January 2017, 12:35 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by matth3wh View Post

      Did I stop as soon as I saw the change and go visit them to get a coffee? Yes!
      Have I gone back for more coffees since they changed? Yes!
      Do I actually have hope for decent coffee in our town now and can now recommend them to visitors? Yes!
      Am I like a politician now, asking and answering my own questions? Yes :-)

      Also worth doing once in a while. Go and have a coffee from your cafe-neighbours (wear a cap?) and see what standard the coffee bar is set at in the area. :-)
      ...Plus everyone's comments are all on point, I just don't know how to multiple quote people haha

      If you're serving Vittoria and maintaining 20kg's a week then you're doing something right.
      ..Could you approach a new coffee supplier, strike a deal and increase your business to maybe 30kgs a week?
      To be honest, I'm not sure anymore.
      Let's take Pablo and Rusty's for an example. They will set you up nicely with a Black Eagle and Mythos which will turn your business around. However, Pablo and Rusty's coffee is very different to Vittoria... you will no doubt gain more customers by serving specialty coffee but you'll also lose a lot of your old customers because you don't serve coffee to their taste anymore... In which case the change you've made is too drastic.

      If you're tied to Vittoria by loyalty and relationship then that's ok. 20kg's a week is pretty good for a cafe with 5 competitors around... actually that's pretty awesome. In which case let's flip this whole thing around:

      Have you thought of printing your own cups?
      Are you allowed to rebrand Vittoria as your own? (your own umbrellas, coffee bags, wind barriers, etc.)

      I think what's important now is to make your customers identify you as you, and not as a Vittoria coffee.

      Next, I'll probably look at sneaking in 'Guest Roaster Of The Week' and maybe start doing single origins first for your black coffees.
      It'll be great if you could upgrade your whole setup, at least something better than a Faema Due 2 Group so you can really showcase your single origins well. (an E61 at least...) and see how you go from there.

      I wouldn't want to compromise your 20kg's a week, especially with 5 competitors around. Best to do is move slowly and strategically. Your demographic likes what you're serving so keep it consistent for now.

      ps. How's the Jibbijug? I almost made a purchase on them a few days ago.... :P

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      • #18
        This has turned into the most terrific thread. So many helpful suggestions from all of you. Nobody being petty or egotistical, nobody shutting anybody else down, and no PC Police to tell us all what we can or can't say. Brilliant! Why doesn't this happen more often?

        I think a 30k is a tad much for my small cafe.
        Yes it certainly is. Given your cafe is a small one, do you think you could get away with using a 1-group? I know you're used to the Faema 2-group, and I'm assuming you probably want another 2-group. I'm just trying to help you keep costs down.

        If it turns out you can indeed get away with using a 1-group (depending on how busy your cafe becomes, regardless of size), then who says you can't get a Slayer for a reasonable enough price? I don't think even the 3-groups cost $30k.

        I know, I know - there's the issue with unseen beauty, but still: (Ebay link removed)

        (Not that I'm necessarily advocating buying from Ebay, just saying - it's often surprising what you can turn up just from poking around the yard like a nosy chicken).

        Your challenge is to keep that positive cashflow going by any means - if it means that you need to take out a $20K lease on equipment so you can set yourself up with a Black Eagle and a Mythos grinder then blow your competition out of the water by better marketing your business as you really make your mark and move into the specialty coffee arena.
        Yes, exactly! We have both a coffee lover and an astute businessman here being mindful of both ROI, while also allowing for the suggestion of additional specialty coffees to be introduced incrementally.

        Steven - you wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) upset Vittoria unless you switched coffees completely, but that's not what your intention appears to be. So I don't think there's anything to worry about for now. Many, many cafes have more than one bean on the go at any one time.

        If you wanted to start by shelling out less... (and not meaning to push the LM barrow) but at 20 coffees / week wouldn't a LM GS3 AV would still be over kill and save you money over other options discussed
        Matt, your typo regarding Steven churning out 20 coffees per week instead of 20kg per week definitely gave us all a good chuckle, however your follow-on advice still reaped a gold nugget in my brain. I know Steven is leaning away from LM, but perhaps he should still be open-minded enough to consider a GS3 2-group? He could probably find one for $12k, or maybe a bit less?

        The reason being that the GS3 2-group costs around $6,000 to $7,000 less than the Black Eagle. *No disrespect Gun Barista, it was still an excellent suggestion. I'm merely assessing the possibilities from a purchase price angle.

        Anyway, that's my two cents worth (until further notice). Like David said above: "These are just my ramblings".
        Last edited by BalthazarG; 20 January 2017, 04:20 PM.

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        • #19
          I'm going to finish off by being a cheeky prick here: I reckon Steven secretly wants a Slayer, and is hoping to find the appropriate justification to get his grubby mits on one! Otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it in the first place.

          Don't you, Steven!? Eh!?
          Last edited by BalthazarG; 20 January 2017, 04:21 PM.

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          • #20
            First time buying a machine for cafe

            +1 for Ruggero multiboiler and leaving yourself money for all the other stuff.

            Gov still give all your < $20k capital expenses like this an instant tax write-off ?!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by GunBarista View Post
              ...Plus everyone's comments are all on point, I just don't know how to multiple quote people haha

              If you're serving Vittoria and maintaining 20kg's a week then you're doing something right.
              ..Could you approach a new coffee supplier, strike a deal and increase your business to maybe 30kgs a week?
              To be honest, I'm not sure anymore.
              Let's take Pablo and Rusty's for an example. They will set you up nicely with a Black Eagle and Mythos which will turn your business around. However, Pablo and Rusty's coffee is very different to Vittoria... you will no doubt gain more customers by serving specialty coffee but you'll also lose a lot of your old customers because you don't serve coffee to their taste anymore... In which case the change you've made is too drastic.

              If you're tied to Vittoria by loyalty and relationship then that's ok. 20kg's a week is pretty good for a cafe with 5 competitors around... actually that's pretty awesome. In which case let's flip this whole thing around:

              Have you thought of printing your own cups?
              Are you allowed to rebrand Vittoria as your own? (your own umbrellas, coffee bags, wind barriers, etc.)

              I think what's important now is to make your customers identify you as you, and not as a Vittoria coffee.

              Next, I'll probably look at sneaking in 'Guest Roaster Of The Week' and maybe start doing single origins first for your black coffees.
              It'll be great if you could upgrade your whole setup, at least something better than a Faema Due 2 Group so you can really showcase your single origins well. (an E61 at least...) and see how you go from there.

              I wouldn't want to compromise your 20kg's a week, especially with 5 competitors around. Best to do is move slowly and strategically. Your demographic likes what you're serving so keep it consistent for now.

              ps. How's the Jibbijug? I almost made a purchase on them a few days ago.... :P

              thank you to everyone for contributing, i have learnt heaps. great community..

              yeah, i could maintain vittoria and be fine, because i do enjoy their coffee. but the substitute bean was just such a joy to work with. i finally understood honey like texture. though the flavour was missing just that sourness that i never knew my palate needed. but after going back to vittoria, i felt sort of restrained. and watching the more watery extraction only made me miss being mesmerized by honey like texture.

              hi matth3wh, ill definately try snobby beans, thanks. but i am not expecting the machine or bean to increase kg, i just want equipment that allows me to completely express my personal interpretation of a lattè, or short mac or doppio. today i was told that steam wand pressure on some machines correspond to how far the lever/dial is, and i really want that. i was also told to consider 3 group, disregarding the factor of volume, but for a lower temperature extraction setting that perhaps a secondary lighter roasted bean may prefer.

              balthazerG, i do want a slayer, as much as id like a ferrari. but if i had the money, i probably wouldnt buy neither. i checked out the black eagle, its got some gravitronetric feature that seems innovative and useful. but i also looked at the down right uggs wega concept, and im actually more drawn to the concept.
              and i guess your right if it came down to an LM being most ideal id opt for it. just three consective LMs, opposed to just something else is just preferred.

              GunB, i tried for a guest roast but currently all my equipment is vitt, even both grinders. i really want to start by just getting my own equipment for that freedom.. i saw some wega had transparent casing looked cool. as for the jibbijug, its great, but i still use my generic one. mainly because i feel its more tailered to her style than mine.

              will keep doing my homework! thanks to everyone again!

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              • #22
                Forget a 1-group, as you own a cafe you'll know that your coffee output isn't spread evenly across the week but is featured by peaks and troughs. A single group won't handle the workflow & output during the peaks and keep your customers happy.

                Your customers are your number one asset, without them you don't have a business,

                Your second biggest asset is your customer relations.... if you can't keep them happy they simply won't show up.. and it's not just the coffee that will keep them happy.Plenty of good advice on this thread from some good people with experience, as well as the usual..... or at least what has become the new normal.

                If you are on a 'contract' with Vittoria it will detail the specifics and may have a total exclusion of all other beans running through their machines. It will also outline the steps needed to end the contract. If you are on a minimum supply and/or term of contract then work out when you can leave with no penalty, get all your ducks in a row then be ready to pull the trigger. I would also advise against signing another contract with another supplier when you are ready to leave; I have known of people threatened with court action simply because they wanted to make a decision about what is their own business. If you want machinery supply as well as coffee then look for a Supply Agreement arrangement.

                The best thing for any serious cafe owner who is serious about their coffee is to own their own machinery, make their own decisions about which coffee goes through it and to promote their own shop on any umbrellas, barriers, cups and takeaways.

                Unless you're well cashed up or can access plenty of credit that won't hurt your cashflow or are just driven by insatiable desire then spending circa $30k on a Slayer is overkill at 20kgs/week. Put your money into consolidating your growth then maybe buy a Kees Spirit or whatever takes your fancy at the time but do your thorough research on the machine you choose. Do you, for instance, know the history of the Slayer V1 and V2? But it looks like you have perspective on that score.

                The term 'Specialty' coffee has many connotations these days but if you have a look here, you can see its origins ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialty_coffee

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                • #23
                  ahh, so speciality coffee is essentially a grade of the bean used. i was in contact with a speciality roaster promptly after posting my initial thread, though states apart, in 45min, he provided much insight as well as business advice.

                  and yes chokkidog, i have thoroughly considered this transition, and understand that it is a big one. the current goal is by mid year if not the end. i have also already planned re-branding like having my own umbrellas and barriers. but currently i dont have cash nor credit just conviction.

                  i think the slayer is awesome, from the name to design. but i feel its too high end for me, and that i may not be able to do it justice..

                  i dont think i could survive a single day with 1 group. unless 2 1 groups.

                  overwhelming

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                  • #24
                    update;

                    i am currently considering the ruggero or a rocket. the pompei's lever looks fun..

                    i want to own my own equipment, so i may purchase exclusive from a coffee supplier. i really want the freedom.

                    kvdw's are really something.. but i think at the end of all this, i may either go overboard or just get another Due..

                    may i ask if anyone has used a 'fun' machine? having only ever used buttons; are levers, knobs and dials as fun as the appear?

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                    • #25
                      For mine, Greg (chokki) hit the nail fair square a few posts ago.

                      If you are under contract with Vittoria, what you should do is absolutely nothing until the contract period is over, or you will find yourself subject to legal action before you have had time to scratch yourself- and they'll be using your cajones as dental floss...

                      My understanding is that they don't often lose court cases for breach of contract and you will most likely end up in court.

                      If the coffee is disappointing, they appear to have a fresh(er) "restaurant blend" which can actually be quite passable if expertly pulled. Maybe you just need to get you some of that...Discuss it with your rep.

                      As for their branding, if I see it, I see a message that says the coffee is likely to be bitterly disappointing and the bloke who owns the cafe is under contract and can't do anything about it. I cut out the middleman and just choose a better offer elsewhere...

                      2mcm

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 2muchcoffeeman View Post
                        For mine, Greg (chokki) hit the nail fair square a few posts ago.

                        If you are under contract with Vittoria, what you should do is absolutely nothing until the contract period is over, or you will find yourself subject to legal action before you have had time to scratch yourself- and they'll be using your cajones as dental floss...

                        My understanding is that they don't often lose court cases for breach of contract and you will most likely end up in court.

                        If the coffee is disappointing, they appear to have a fresh(er) "restaurant blend" which can actually be quite passable if expertly pulled. Maybe you just need to get you some of that...Discuss it with your rep.

                        As for their branding, if I see it, I see a message that says the coffee is likely to be bitterly disappointing and the bloke who owns the cafe is under contract and can't do anything about it. I cut out the middleman and just choose a better offer elsewhere...

                        2mcm

                        As usual excellent advice Chris.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 2muchcoffeeman View Post
                          For mine, Greg (chokki) hit the nail fair square a few posts ago.

                          If you are under contract with Vittoria, what you should do is absolutely nothing until the contract period is over, or you will find yourself subject to legal action before you have had time to scratch yourself- and they'll be using your cajones as dental floss...

                          My understanding is that they don't often lose court cases for breach of contract and you will most likely end up in court.

                          If the coffee is disappointing, they appear to have a fresh(er) "restaurant blend" which can actually be quite passable if expertly pulled. Maybe you just need to get you some of that...Discuss it with your rep.

                          As for their branding, if I see it, I see a message that says the coffee is likely to be bitterly disappointing and the bloke who owns the cafe is under contract and can't do anything about it. I cut out the middleman and just choose a better offer elsewhere...

                          2mcm
                          Spot on Chris.

                          We have been wholesaling coffee for cafes and restaurants for 9 years.

                          Let me assure you if you have a contract with Vitoria, YOU WILL BE PAYING TO GET OUT OF IT BEFORE TERM.

                          There has been lots of interesting information in the previous posts.

                          Let me give you my summary, we have also been supplying commercial machines for 9 years, so we have some experience.

                          Don't even think of a single group machine.
                          Its nice that people are suggesting Slayers etc, but I don't think that is really in your budget.
                          People do stop and look at machines and judge a café from the outside before they enter. IMO an Expobar is a not " a head turner"
                          If you want something reliable and affordable think Wega or Nuova Simonelli.
                          The Victoria Arduino Black Eagle is a great machine, the current machine for the WBC. However it is expensive. if its just outside your budget maybe consider their new WHITE EAGLE. It has the Nuova Simonelli Aurelia internals but in the VA body. It is a head turner!

                          There has been lots of great advice here but its your money... and your decision.

                          Cheers

                          Antony
                          Last edited by Casa Espresso; 24 January 2017, 10:59 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Casa Espresso View Post
                            People do stop and look at machines and judge a café from the outside before they enter.
                            I certainly agree with this statement, I'm one of them that do this, they say you cant judge a book by it's cover, however you can get a pretty good feel for what to expect.

                            As well as the machine scope out the general ambience, is it busy or do the barista's look like they're killing time waiting for the next customer/victim.

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                            • #29
                              I look at grinders and listen for them running. If it has a doser and runs continually i dont have a coffee

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                              • #30
                                This is the White Eagle or if you are thinking leva the VA Athena leva
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