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Bought a used Faema E98 compact A1 and looking for advice.

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  • #16
    There's a circuit schematic in one of the manuals I linked you to. The same manual has the hydraulic schematic for your machine in it.

    I told you in the same post that gave the link to the full manual that your machine can be hooked up to run from the internal tank alone or direct from mains. I also explained why it uses the internal tank even when hooked to mains.


    Java "Repeat" phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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    • #17
      Thank´s for the reminder Javarepeatphile, I´m no expert at this but will of course look thoroughly at the schematics.
      Regarding the water from mains and internal tank, the reason I´m baffeled about this (although your explanation was good) is that both my machines are connected different from the schematics. From mains the water goes in to Evc and from there to the internal tank. From there the water goes from the internal tank to the pump (see pic), but WITHOUT the T- joint. That is probably why there´s no water out of the pump, because it does not have pressure from mains. And that´s why I asked again about the internal tank, it´s only bypassing the mains supply pressure. How the former owner got water out of the group this way is still unknown to me, but I will try connecting the mains directly to the pump and short the two connectors for the probes in the internal tank as shown in the manual.
      Attached Files

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      • #18
        Update (and sorry for all the posts): disconnected probes and did NOT short them as manual says, and connected mains directly to pump.
        (resistance between probes in water is 20Kohm´s so suspect that it should be a resistor in series between connectors to work )
        Too much pressure, pump on overload, and the rubber hose started leaking. Reconnected probes and watertank, removed the waterfilter as this is not needed in Norway (2.5dH). Now everything is working, although I have no way to test brewing as the group gasket and showerscreen was destroid. New parts ordered on monday so will have to wait.
        Have a nice weekend and thanks for all help so far!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by subchannel View Post
          Thank´s for the reminder Javarepeatphile, I´m no expert at this but will of course look thoroughly at the schematics.
          Regarding the water from mains and internal tank, the reason I´m baffeled about this (although your explanation was good) is that both my machines are connected different from the schematics. From mains the water goes in to Evc and from there to the internal tank. From there the water goes from the internal tank to the pump (see pic), but WITHOUT the T- joint. That is probably why there´s no water out of the pump, because it does not have pressure from mains. And that´s why I asked again about the internal tank, it´s only bypassing the mains supply pressure. How the former owner got water out of the group this way is still unknown to me, but I will try connecting the mains directly to the pump and short the two connectors for the probes in the internal tank as shown in the manual.
          The pump does not require that it be connected directly to the mains in order for it to work. Hooked up as shown in the hydraulic schematic you attached the only reason the connection to mains is required is in order for the internal tank to be auto-filled. The pump can't fill it as it is attached to the item labeled "Ad" in your attached schematic which is the water softener, what you called the waterfilter in your next post, where it pulls water from the tank to distribute it to the rest of the machine. The mains supplies the pressure to push the water through Evc1 - when its relay opens it - and into the internal tank. In this configuration the water level probes are not shorted. If they were the tank would never fill/refill with water when it ran low as the machine would always think the tank was full.

          When you say "but WITHOUT the T- joint" do you mean the T-fitting as shown in the upper right of your attached schematic is missing or that it was bypassed? Or are you referring to the pipe/hose labeled "T" in the bottom center of your attached schematic? If the latter the "T" means that pipe/hose has been capped/plugged, it is attached to nothing.

          In your next post you say you removed the water softener, your waterfilter, and everything worked. That says the problem in your above setup was a plugged water softener and had nothing to do with where the mains was connected.

          Originally posted by subchannel View Post
          Update (and sorry for all the posts): disconnected probes and did NOT short them as manual says, and connected mains directly to pump.
          (resistance between probes in water is 20Kohm´s so suspect that it should be a resistor in series between connectors to work )
          Too much pressure, pump on overload, and the rubber hose started leaking. Reconnected probes and watertank, removed the waterfilter as this is not needed in Norway (2.5dH). Now everything is working, although I have no way to test brewing as the group gasket and showerscreen was destroid. New parts ordered on monday so will have to wait.
          Have a nice weekend and thanks for all help so far!
          The rubber hose started leaking? Unless you have a very different version from the one shown in the manual mains pressure should not be in any line that is not a metal one inside of the machine.

          The section in the manual titled "Steps for Inverting the Supply" (Starting on page 13.) in the Installation chapter is showing you how to convert the machine from this configuration:

          Click image for larger version

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          To the configuration in the schematic you attached in Post 17. My schematic is on page 39 on the manual directly below the one you posted (The above image is the one in the manual rotated 90 degrees clockwise.) and shows the pump connected directly to mains. It is in this configuration that the water level probe's wires are to be shorted to each other.

          Notice in the pictures showing how to do the conversion that all of the pipes with mains pressure are metal. None of them are rubber! If you have water under mains pressure or under pump pressure running through rubber hoses inside of the machine you have something hooked up incorrectly or somebody in the past has substituted a rubber hose for an OEM part. I suggest you carefully trace your pipes/hoses and match them up to the hydraulic schematics and conversion pictures in the manual. In line with this can you post pictures of the tags on both of the machines you have showing their model number, specs, and manufacture dates as well as a picture of a front view of the machines. That might be helpful here as designs have been known to change over time.

          Also note that Faema states that mains pressure should be regulated to no more than 6bars of pressure.


          Java "I think that covers it" phile
          Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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          • #20
            I think that covers it Javaithinkthatcoversitphile. And apologize for my english, yes I meant the T-fitting. And yes, the probes ere not shorted when it´s hooked up to fill the internal tank. Both machines are identical, except:
            -2000 vs 2001 model
            -2000 model has a very small hose nut on water intake, not standard here, 8.63mm Inner Diameter (have found elsewhere) against standard 3/8 on the 2001 modell.
            -2000 model has water hose form internal tank on right side, 2001 is on left side.

            Other than that no differences that I can see. Faema Logo sticker gone on one but present on the removed front panel.
            It´s of course copper pipes from water intake to Evc but rubber hose from there to water tank, and rubber from watertank to pump. In opposite to what I´ve read elsewhere, the pump draws water from internal tank. And that leads me back to something I´ve read here as well: never run a rotary pump from a bucket. Which is exactly what happens on both machines, pump draws water from internal tank.

            But thank you very much for the very good followup on this Javaphile, most appreciated. And as I´m new to this forum, how does one contribute to help others/ how to get notified on topics?
            Attached Files

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            • #21
              subchannel Both of your machines are early models of the newer E98 compact A1's and so may vary from what the Installation Manual (December 2002) and the Parts Manual (January 2002) we have here depict.

              The In (Injector) attached to the Evc1 reduces mains pressure so the tank is filled in a controlled manner rather than having water sprayed everywhere at mains pressure. Plus the plastic/rubber line/hose that runs from the Evc1 to the tank is open on the tank end meaning the line/hose would not be subjected to mains pressure even if the Injector hadn't reduced it.

              The plastic/rubber line/hose that runs from the Water Softener to the pump is under negative pressure when the pump is tunning as it is attached to the inlet side of the pump, not the outlet side.

              So the question becomes, what plastic/rubber line/hose was leaking??? Did you mistakenly connect the plastic/rubber line/hose coming off of Evc1 that runs into the tank to the pump? That line is not changed in the reconfiguration! Leave it exactly where it is now running into the tank!

              Is the T-fitting present in your machines? Assuming it is the 3rd line coming off the T-fitting that is either capped (Tank being used.) or connected to the pump (Tank not being used.), should be metal. When you converted to run the pump off of mains the plastic/rubber line/hose running from the Water Softener to the pump should have been capped off and had no pressure in it at all and the line/hose off of the Evc1 would be unchanged from the other configuration so if it's not leaking now (In the tank being used configuration.) it wouldn't have been leaking in the mains to pump/tank not being used configuration either. The water supply line to the machine from mains is unchanged in either configuration. So once again, what plastic/rubber line/hose was leaking when you reconfigured the machine to connect the mains to the pump?

              Assuming the T-fitting is present in your machines and you plan on running them from mains I would highly recommend you reconfigure them so the pump draws from the T-fitting rather than the Water Softener. To do so follow the "Steps for Inverting the Supply" on pages 13-14 in the installation Manual in reverse, including installing the shorting jumper (Make one up yourself if you can't order one from a dealer.) on the water level probe's leads. If you don't install the shorting jumper you'll end up with standing water in the tank where all kinds of nasty stuff can then grow. Also remember to cap off the line/hose coming from the Water Softener when you disconnect it from the pump.

              In opposite to what I´ve read elsewhere, the pump draws water from internal tank. And that leads me back to something I´ve read here as well: never run a rotary pump from a bucket. Which is exactly what happens on both machines, pump draws water from internal tank.
              From Post/Comment 11.5 above: "Note that both Faema and Cimbali state their rotary pump machines won't run that way but it's clearly for warranty purposes as I have run a number of their machines from bottles and I know many others who have as well. As long as a check valve is installed so the pump doesn't loose prime and the lift height is minimal it shouldn't be a problem."

              The danger of running from a bucket is that the pump can loose its prime and end up running with no water in it, which is a rotary pump killer. With the container of water being above the pump or a check valve being in the water line that's not a problem.

              But thank you very much for the very good followup on this Javaphile, most appreciated. And as I´m new to this forum, how does one contribute to help others/ how to get notified on topics?
              Glad to help.

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              Java "Dinner time!" phile
              Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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              • #22
                Thanks again Javaphile, much appreciated.
                Last tested I run water from the mains to Evc (metal) and through the rubber hose to the pump. I knew this was stupid, the hose then got almost full pressure from mains and started swelling and made it´s own extra pressure to the pump. Hence the leaking. I promise to never do that again.

                There´s no T-fittings in both machines.

                I have now rebuilt the machine, removed the internal tank, water filter an all rubber hose´s connected to this. Shorted the two connectors for the tank probes (this only to stop the blinking LED on front as the Evc is now not in use). Mains water goes directly to pump. I have not measured the pressure from mains, but sounds like the pump is working as it should. Also adjusted the pressure regulating nut on the pump.
                The only challenge now is the OPV (Vp). The set screw is stuck (CRC 565´d it, but no luck so far). Bare in mind that machine is tested without showerscreen/ portafilter, but the hose for excess water from Vp is running when brewing is started. It´s not a lot, but it´s way more than dripping. As with the pump pressure adjustment I guess this will also affect brewing pressure. I have a portafilter with Manometer. and will test pressure when the grouphead is reassembled.

                I would really like to get these machines in working order. I first bought a Wega Atlas EVD 1gr to have at home, but this machine is BIG. Also it was leaking everywhere, not used in 15-20 years. All the parts on this machine is taken apart, only frame left. Spare parts arrived from Bigwarehouse Spares yesterday , so looking forward to rebuild this as well as a new paint job on the machine and the Wega Max 6.4 that came with it.

                And after that I will start working on a Faema E61 Legend that has issues, although the exterior is in mint condition. This is FUN! (although stealing much time from paying work)
                Attached Files

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                • #23
                  Did you loosen the set screw on the side of the OPV before trying to turn the large adjusting screw on the end of the OPV? The set screw holds the adjusting screw in place and needs to be loosened for it to be turned and then re-tightened once you're done adjusting the OPV.

                  Out of curiosity did you use a resistor between the two probe wires or simply do a dead short?


                  Java "Getting closer" phile
                  Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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                  • #24
                    Djises, why didn´t i check that?? Hidden behind a rubber gasket, but no excuse.
                    I tested with a 2W 20ohm resistor, and without, no difference. But I´l probably put it there and wrap it in a heat shrink tube. Although I doubt it, it could affect the electronics not to use it.
                    Thanks AGAIN!

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                    • #25
                      The set screw was missing on both machines, but brute force and a bigger screwdriver solved it.

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                      • #26
                        Aaaaaaah, it`s all coming together. Of course there where loads of new problems, but all solved. Manometer was broken, pressure valve on pump was stuck, the pressure shot the needle way above max. Took the manometer from the other machine, opened the valve on the pump and loosened it, and the right pressure could be adjusted. (do you use 9 or 10 bars when adjusting with a portafilter with pressure gauge Javaphile? I guess the pressure have to be adjusted differently if used with internal tank as well?).
                        Brewed the first double espresso with my all time favourite beans Passalacqua Mexico (highly recommended!), and the taste was way better than my Rancilio Lucy. But can and will be even better with propper tamping and a better grinder. The color of the crema should be a bit darker.
                        All panels except bottom frame are painted with primer, color and 2-component clear spray. Used paintremover on the lid for the internal tank, and, surprise, underneath it was polished stainless steel. All non painted panels polished with Autosol.
                        Will post pics when finished. All in all I estimate 25 hours of work, from wreck to near new condition, and around $100 in parts and spraypaint, not bad concidering I paid $500 for both machines and two Mazzer grinders.
                        Attached Files

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                        • roosterben
                          roosterben commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Really nice work bringing the machine back from the dead. If you are measuring at the group I would go for 9 bar max (8 or 8.5 even) depending on your taste preferences.

                      • #27
                        Originally posted by subchannel View Post
                        (do you use 9 or 10 bars when adjusting with a portafilter with pressure gauge Javaphile? I guess the pressure have to be adjusted differently if used with internal tank as well?).
                        As Roosterben commented try adjusting between 8 and 9 bars and see what tastes best to you.

                        Yes, if you switch back to using the tank you will have to readjust the pump's pressure. If you move to a new location with a different mains water pressure you will have to readjust the pump's pressure.

                        As with all espresso machines make sure the grouphead and portafilter are completely warmed up prior to pulling any shots. Also keep in mind that you will need to do a cooling purge/purges prior to pulling your shot as with this HX design they run hot. As a starting point try by doing a cooling purge (Running water through the grouphead.) by running through the grouphead until it stops sputtering and for a few seconds longer. Then grind your beans and load/tamp your portafilter. Then before locking the portafilter into the grouphead run another cooling purge until the sputtering stops plus 2 seconds more. Then immediately lock the portafilter into place and pull your shot.

                        Before giving up on your grinders check their burrs and give them a good cleaning. Your burrs are likely dull and in need of replacing, which are a lot cheaper than a new grinder.


                        Java "Looking good" phile
                        Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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