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  • Bezzera Duo DE Dual Boiler

    I have just seen this machine starting to hit the US market. Some have it in stock, others have it coming in but since its so new here, I can't really get much info on it aside from reading specs. Anyone here know this machine? I've attached a pix. Before seeing this, I was about ready to pop for the ECM Synchronika but I like some of the features of this machine and since its a volumetric machine, it makes it easier for others in the house to use. It offers many of the features of the machine I currently have and that we like. It's being advertised for US$2,750. They use their own version of the E61 brew group with an electric element PID controlled heater and two more PID's for the brew and steam boilers.

    Is Bezzera a reliable brand? I don't particularly like early adoption with products that have electronics in them

    If you want to read more about it, here's a site where you can.. https://www.wholelattelove.com/bezze...,1C40GF,9NDV,1



    Click image for larger version

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  • #2
    Quite like the look of the Bezzera Duo MN which is in the same family as the DE. The DE is volumetric and has the Bezzera electrically heated grouphead. The MN has an E61 grouphead and no volumetric brewing buttons. Appears like we do get the MN version here as well as the similar Bezzera Matrix clear sided version with the added light show. Been out a little while now but worth a mention I thought.

    Bezzera Matrix and Duo MN - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-prKcL5H-4

    Internal tour - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoDRdSXV06U

    Just noticed that this thread should really be moved into the $3000+ machine category.
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 14th May 2019, 12:15 PM. Reason: Correction MN version availability

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    • #3
      Originally posted by CafeLotta View Post
      Quite like the look of the Bezzera Duo MN which is in the same family as the DE. The DE is volumetric and has the Bezzera electrically heated grouphead. The MN has an E61 grouphead and no volumetric brewing buttons. Doesn't look like we get the MN version here but rather the similar Bezzera Matrix clear sided version with the added light show. Been out a little while now but worth a mention I thought. Puts it at a similar market price point as the classy Izzo Alex Duetto IV Plus which has the added feature of pre-heating water entering the brew boiler.

      Bezzera Matrix and Duo MN - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-prKcL5H-4

      Internal tour - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoDRdSXV06U

      Just noticed that this thread should really be moved into the $3000+ machine category.
      I was on the fence in terms of whether to go with the Duo DE or the ECM Synchronika. I was in Germany last fall and finally had the chance to see both machines and use them at two different places in two different cities. It became clear to me after spending time with them both that for me, the Synchronika was the better machine. Why? Well, I really wanted the volumetric feature of the Duo DE because I had grown used to that by owning a few Breville Dual Boilers over the years but the quality of the Duo DE's I saw were just not at the $3K-ish level. LCD failures, more flimsy than the ECM and there is something to be said about he tried and true E61 group. The Duo DE is new and I guess they need time to work out their issues but having that LCD panel adjacent to the boilers isn't doing it any favors.

      So, upon returned back home to the states, I bought the Synchronika and am very pleased with it. Built like a tank, consistent, quiet and reliable. I'll have to put this machine in my will :-)

      Comment


      • #4
        Does sound like there are a few things that might need to be improved. The additional electronics in the Duo would no doubt increase it's vulnerability to failure when compared to a simpler designed machine. The thread on the link below has someone commenting on moisture forming on the inside of the screen. I've never understood why all manufacturers don't vent moisture from the relief and vacuum valves to the drip tray rather than some allowing it to vent internally. Might be the reason for the screen issue.

        https://www.home-barista.com/advice/...uo-t51488.html
        Last edited by CafeLotta; 14th May 2019, 03:21 PM.

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        • #5
          One of the first things I did to my Matrix was install a anti-vac with a return line to the tray.
          I could see the moisture condensing on the insides of the panels.

          To be honest, the machine has a lot of niggling faults. Listed below:

          1. Anti-vac vents in to the case
          2. In-tank water level sensor is far too sensitive. Triggers to fill with over a litre left and cuts the machine off during a shot if it triggers.
          3. LCD screen and main power light stays on full brightness when on standby.
          4. Pump pressure gauge is useless, bounces from 5-10 bar during the shot and responds incredibly slowly.
          5. Pump adjustment is accessed from the base of the machine. Pretty hard to access when the machine is installed.
          6. "Adjustable pre-infusion" isn't pre-infusion, it's just wetting. Allows a small amount of water onto the puck, closes the solenoid and keeps the pump running but no line pressure onto the puck.
          7. When switching on from standby, the machine doesn't indicate the current boiler temperatures, it displays the temperature that the machine was at when last switched off.

          My machine has also started turning itself on at sometime during the night. I have the auto on/off timer on and the set time hasn't changed but a few times I've woken up early morning and the machine is already on.

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          • #6
            Always good to get unfiltered feedback from an owner of the machine, especially when it's from a longer term CS member.

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            • #7
              Mate I feel for you, those issues are not what you expect to have when buying a $4000+ machine.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by noidle22 View Post
                One of the first things I did to my Matrix was install a anti-vac with a return line to the tray.
                I could see the moisture condensing on the insides of the panels.

                To be honest, the machine has a lot of niggling faults. Listed below:

                1. Anti-vac vents in to the case
                2. In-tank water level sensor is far too sensitive. Triggers to fill with over a litre left and cuts the machine off during a shot if it triggers.
                3. LCD screen and main power light stays on full brightness when on standby.
                4. Pump pressure gauge is useless, bounces from 5-10 bar during the shot and responds incredibly slowly.
                5. Pump adjustment is accessed from the base of the machine. Pretty hard to access when the machine is installed.
                6. "Adjustable pre-infusion" isn't pre-infusion, it's just wetting. Allows a small amount of water onto the puck, closes the solenoid and keeps the pump running but no line pressure onto the puck.
                7. When switching on from standby, the machine doesn't indicate the current boiler temperatures, it displays the temperature that the machine was at when last switched off.

                My machine has also started turning itself on at sometime during the night. I have the auto on/off timer on and the set time hasn't changed but a few times I've woken up early morning and the machine is already on.

                noidle22,
                I saw some of those issues when looking at the Duo DE in Germany....let me first go on to say that the Duo DE is the machine I really wanted due to its features but wasn't willing to put up with potential issues, especially after coming from the Breville DB and all of its issues and the fact they wouldn't sell me replacement parts. I wanted reliability this time around.

                Ok, so the ECM Synchronika has a few irks of its own, for me, they are:
                - The pump pressure adjustment is also on the bottom of the machine, however, I set it initially and have never had to touch it again
                - There is no "pre-infusion", there is just wetting unless you hard plumb the machine, then you would have line pressure pre-infusion. Mine is currently using the internal water reservoir so all I have is wetting
                - The in tank low water sensor pisses me off, it will simply shut the steam boiler off once it triggers, .. no warning. I know this is pretty typical on E31's but being typical (common) you would think the mfg would have installed a warning light, sight window or someway to prevent it from simply turning off in the middle of a brew.

                That's it, all pretty minor really and none that cause a reliability or consistency issue. The lack of electronics is in fact the beauty of the Synchronika. It just works, day after day, just works. I am learning to check the water reservoir level more often and am thinking of how I can install some sort of low level warning cause the wife won't let me drill a hole in the counter to run a water line

                Here's a pic.. . .Yeah I know, they all look alike

                Click image for larger version

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Martino View Post
                  - There is no "pre-infusion", there is just wetting unless you hard plumb the machine, then you would have line pressure pre-infusion. Mine is currently using the internal water reservoir so all I have is wetting
                  I run my Matrix on mains pressure now and the preinfusion still doesn't work, it's just wetting.

                  It's the way the machine operates. The group solenoid opens breifly to allow water onto the puck but the machine starts the pump as soon as the shot button is pressed. The group solenoid then closes but the pump stays on, diverting water somewhere other than the group. There's a small spurt of water into the tray when this happens but not a constant flow which means the pump isn't just directing water into the tray. It isn't going onto the puck though so it's going somewhere.

                  I can't see why Bezzera didn't program the machine for line pressure preinfusion. The hardware is all there, it just needs to be programmed properly. I did speak to the importers about this briefly but there was no indication that Bezzera were planning to do anything about it because as far as i could make out, i was the only person to have called them and brought up the issue.

                  My main issue with this was that the product brochure clearly states "Settable pre-infusion" when the machine clearly can't perform pre-infusion. If they had said "Settable puck wetting" or similar then that would have been clearer.

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                  • #10
                    You have reminded me why I didn't buy the Duo DE. I now remember watching a video on its features and saw how 'pre infusion" didn't work along with a couple other oddities. However, I still wanted the machine at that point, it wasn't until my reliability issues were confirmed when I saw faulty LCD displays on the demo machines in Germany that I put it all together and made my decision against it and for the ECM. Ok, so we each made our buying decision and now have to live with our machines. Of course, you can try to sell it and get something else but for me, I'm happy and will stay with the ECM.

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                    • #11
                      Yeah I'm going to stick with it. None of the small issues are deal breakers for me really. I hope that there is a remedy for the pre-infusion at some point in the future.

                      One thing I thought of yesterday after writing my reply, as I said, the first mod I did was to install a vent to tray anti-vac valve. I've not had any moisture behind the LCD problems or LCD problems at all but a surprising number of people seem to have.

                      This would seem to point to the anti-vac venting into the case as being the probable cause of this now. I would hope that Bezzera can take this on board and include a vent to tray anti-vac on the next revision of the machine. It's ridiculous that they didn't include it as standard to start with really when you consider the price of the machine.

                      Also one other annoyance I have with it, every time I turn it on, the autofill runs for 5 seconds and it seems to top itself up nearly every time I use the steam or a little bit of hot water by running the pump for another 5 seconds or so. I think they need to revise the autofill sensitivity as well.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Martino View Post
                        Ok, so the ECM Synchronika has a few irks of its own, for me, they are:
                        - The pump pressure adjustment is also on the bottom of the machine, however, I set it initially and have never had to touch it again
                        - There is no "pre-infusion", there is just wetting unless you hard plumb the machine, then you would have line pressure pre-infusion. Mine is currently using the internal water reservoir so all I have is wetting
                        Your comment re: pre-infusion (in addition to the built-in E61 mechanical pre-infusion), had me wondering what the correct definition of this was. As it happened this article popped into my inbox not long after -

                        https://clivecoffee.com/blogs/learn/..._hsmi=72657666

                        The one thing I believe the animated diagram gets wrong though is that it shows water entering the Pre-Infusion chamber below the cam. My understanding is that the pre-Infusion Valve spring requires 4-6 Bar pressure to open the valve. If a plumbed in machine has adjustable line pressure set to 3 bar, the line pressure won't activate the E61 Pre-Infusion valve so water will have a quicker, more direct path to the portafilter for initial manual or programmed Pre-Infusion at 3 bar. I've seen various Pre-Infusion valve springs available (especially overseas) so imagine you could play around with the E61's native pre-infusion pressure and adjust it down if so desired. For those that haven't noticed it, your brew pressure gauge will show a momentary pause at around 4-6 bar at the beginning of a brew before settling at 9 bar or thereabouts. This is the E61's mechanical Pre-Infusion at work.
                        Last edited by CafeLotta; 19th May 2019, 02:07 PM. Reason: Added comments.

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                        • #13
                          I recently purchased a Bezzera Duo DE. It's a beautiful machine. However the advertised so-called Settable Pre-infusion is a falsehood. The engineering implementation of the function does not in any way provide pre-infusion as we understand it. That is, to gently soak the puck at low pressure prior to raising the pressure to the extraction level. Most machines do this by simply allowing line pressure (for plumbed configurations regulated to about 4 Bars) to flow into the group head. If you operate from the water reservoir then pre-infusion is not generally possible unless your machine has a variable pressure capability. Few domestic machines can do this.

                          The Duo DE is marketed as Settable Pre-infusion from both plumbed line or tank. A really high-end feature. This was one of the significant features that led me to this purchase. I now discover their implementation of pre-infusion simply does not pre-infuse. The pre-infusion algorithm is:
                          - With the pressing of a shot button, the pump immediately turns on and presses 9 Bars into the group head for one second. 6ml of water enters the portafilter.
                          - After one second, the pump continues to operate however the group head solenoid valve operates dropping the pressure in the group head to zero Bars.
                          - The pressure remains at zero Bars for the period set in the Pre-Infusion (called Wetting) menu, say 4 seconds.
                          - After that 4 seconds, the group head solenoid operates again and the pressure rises to 9 Bars for the extraction period.

                          This sequence is identical for both reservoir and plumbed line operation. But it is neither gentle soaking or soaking at all. The puck is wet on top and dry at the bottom. The pre-infusion time setting is purely a pause from one second of full pressure to zero pressure for the set time and then back to full pressure. Any setting between one and five seconds makes no real difference. It doesn't use line pressure at all and does not achieve pre-infusion (no pressure) or wetting (6ml is woefully too little) by any definition of the terms. The espresso extracted is poor compared to my ECM Elekronika (fitted with line pressure variable pre-infusion). I will be in negotiation to return the machine and a refund.

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                          • #14
                            You just bought the machine I wanted. I really liked everything about it and got to see a couple of them in action during a trip to Germany a year or so ago. I was so happy to have finally been standing in front of the machine I wanted but was changing my mind as every minute went by. The pre infusion technique was one of the reasons and the other was the failure of the LCD display that I had seen in video's and reviews, I saw for myself on both of the machines I looked at. I wanted a volumetric machine as that is what I was used to and found it super convenient. I just figured the Due DE was simply too new on the market and most new products with electronics and heat have their share of issues till the company has had a chance to solve them but I waited long enough and I wanted to replace my current Breville DB so I bought the Synchronika instead.
                            Sorry you are not satisfied with the Duo DE, since you already have it, have you tried playing around with your grind? Possibly you can find a slightly courser grind may allow full puck wetting, I mean what have you got to lose, you already have the machine and its got to be a hassle to return it and then figure out what the replacement will be. If you are not stuck on the beans you are using, try a diff bean as well. If you must have a volumetric machine, you're not going to find much out there for the price of Duo DE and I cannot recommend the Breville DB but if at some point you want to consider it, private msg me first and I'll share my experience with it. Well for that matter, my experience is in this forum as there is a section for it but just suffice it to say it is a kitchen appliance like a toaster.

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                            • #15
                              I have to eat my words!. I was too hasty with my post of last week. I'm learning the Duo and now pulling brilliant shots. The temperature and pressure control is second to none. My major complaint was that Bezzera implemented a pre-infusion technique that surprised me. But it works! I've set my pre-infusion to 4 seconds and calibrated the doses. I also bought a refractometer and have been able to set my shots for better Total % Extraction to suit my taste. The big difference for me is the three PIDs. The third PID controls the group head temperature in parallel with the PID controlling the brew boiler temperature. Temperature in the head is rock solid. It's simply amazing how the machine manages output with what seems to be small boilers. The brew boiler is 0.45litres and operates full and at pump/head pressure. The steam boiler is only one litre but has 1200W heating. Typically other dual boiler machines have a steam boiler of say two litres and 1200W heating. It's counter-intuitive but a smaller boiler with the PID heats up twice as fast as the larger boiler for the same heater. The larger boiler has a greater steam reserve but even with a two litre boiler, you exhaust the reserve quickly while steaming milk and rely on the heater keeping with your steam drain. The steam from this one litre boiler (with very fast PID reheat trigger) is better than my old 2.1 litre boiler with a pressurestat. The build quality of the Duo is as good as or even better than the ECM and that is saying something. The Bezzera has a 100% stainless steel chassis as well as the case. All the stainless steel is food-grade. I'm more impressed with the machine every day.

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