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  • TampIt
    replied
    Originally posted by gunda View Post
    Tampit has given you the views of an experienced, expert user. I'll give you the views of an inexperienced (5 years serious coffee), inexpert user.

    First, I'd ignore some of the posts earlier in this thread, which seem to be an attempt to spread F.U.D. But they have served some purpose as they provoked me into replying.

    Next, owners don't discuss the machine here because there's no need - there's an owners forum. I agree, it's a pain for prospective purchasers that they can't read this forum, but that's the reason why you don't see the discussion here.

    If you want a comprehensive review in addition to Tampit's, then read the Home Barista one. I think it's mostly fair, although a little dated as they had a V1.0 machine. Also John Weiss is one of two prominent owners who think that Decent shots lack "mouthfeel". Most of the rest of us don't, and those of us who have had the recent opportunity to try a "spacer" above the shower screen definitely don't (more on this below). To your questions:

    1. Are the owners sticking with the machine? Or is there temptation to revert to a more traditional machine?

    Yes. No. That's speaking for myself. I haven't seen many for sale. The other prominent user who felt the machine lacked mouthfeel had his DE for sale at one stage, but that seems to be an exception. John Buckman recently announced that they've shipped 1,000 machines. The absence of for-sale ads suggests most owners are keeping theirs.

    I'd be the first to admit that the DE is overkill for me, even though I don't drink dark roasts myself (wife does) and I don't have a traditional grinder. (c.f Tampit's comment about overkill.) I jumped because of what I perceived as the inflexibility of E61 machines, esp HX. Slow to warm up and to change brew temp and not easy to pressure profile. Some of these things can be had in a PID DB E61 with a flow control knob, but they're still slow to warm up and temp changes still take time. If I have a roast where I'm struggling to get the same out of it that others say they're getting, there aren't many levers to pull on an E61, so to speak.

    There are incidental side-benefits to the DE. It takes up less space, and you can take it travelling with you (by car) more easily than the average E61.

    However the flexibility of the DE comes at a $ cost - they ain't cheap. I don't regret buying the machine. Would I do it again? Yes, I think so. But it's not every day you drop > $4K on a machine, so it takes some thought and you have to be in an adventurous mood. You also need a good quality single dosing grinder to get the most out of the flexibility that the DE offers, so that you can quickly change bean and grind as needed. The Niche seems to be the grinder of choice for many DE users.

    2. Any issues or things that could be improved?

    At one level, I'm sure there is. This is a V1.x machine. There will no doubt be a V2 and V3 etc. On the software side, improvements are ongoing. The app is being updated all the time. The firmware for the machine happens less often, and at the moment is in a holding pattern while they get it ready for the forthcoming V1.3 machine, but there will be further releases. You upgrade these over wi-fi.

    What are the niggles? I guess the main one for me is the spacer issue. This story is too long to tell here, but in short, there's a body of evidence that suggests that shots can be improved if the shower screen is lowered by a few mm. The Decent techs are exploring this. Owners have taken matters into their own hands, and two of them (in the US) are fabricating brass / stainless spacers. John recently referred to this in his long thread. IMHO the shots are improved with a spacer by more than he seemed to suggest. I'd rather than the Decent techs moved more quickly on this issue, but it's a small company, and finalising the V1.3 machine seems to be the priority.

    You have to be careful with water quality. In order to get the control over flow and pressure and temp, the DE seems to have narrow diameter plumbing (I'm sure I saw John say something to this effect somewhere in a post.) I think it's more susceptible to scale than the average E61 machine. The good news is that it's easier to descale the DE - use citric acid and the built-in descale routine - but with hard water you'd be doing it more often with the DE. Easier to use the right water.

    The tablet that controls the DE is a fairly basic Android tablet running Android 5. Its bluetooth connection to the tablet can be flakey and may need to be reset from time to time. There is an upgraded tablet coming running V8. Not sure whether it's now shipping with new machines. Apple users aren't wild about Android, but it works. Decent, and a number of tech-savvy users, are working on broadening the range of devices that can control the DE, so this will be less a constraint in the future, and from V1.3 the tablet will only control configuration and profile selection - starting and stopping the machine will be controlled from the top of the group head.

    You'll need to allow for a few accessories. The one accessory I'd strongly advise is a bluetooth scale, which enables you to chart the shot weight in real time, and to stop on weight. At present your only real option is the Skale 2, although the Decent scale is coming (it's been coming for a while). The question is where to put it? The Skale isn't all that water-proof, and so on the drip tray isn't ideal. Under the drip tray is better, but you need a scale stand for that. Whatever you do, do NOT buy the one on the Decent website. All their accessories are excellent, except this one. Wait until you have access to the Decent forum and get a 3D printed Skale stand.

    3. Has the quality of your espresso been consistent throughout?

    I'm not the best person person to answer. Not skilled enough, and I can sometimes struggle to get the best out of a bean, on both E61 and DE. That said, I think the shots are consistently better with the DE. (At present I think I'm getting the best shots out of Andy's Espresso Wow that I've ever had - balance of sweetness and body - so perhaps it wasn't overkill after all.) When they're not, it's not the machine's fault. The DE gives you more options to get things right, and also to get things wrong. Many users posting on the Decent forum say that they've learnt much more, more quickly, on the DE, and I think that even Tampit was saying something along those lines.

    There is a temptation to tinker with profiles, esp as a new user. There is a danger of disappearing down the rabbit hole. If you eventually decide to get one, resist this temptation, stick to the basic profiles, at least initially, and you'll be a whole lot happier. The time to experiment will come, don't be impatient. This advice probably doesn't apply to more experienced users.

    4. Ultimately whether you still highly recommend the machine?

    Yes, I'd recommend it highly, for the right person, but it's probably not a machine for everyone. As I said, I'd buy it again, although it would still take a very deep breath. The V1.3 is going to jump in price by over AUD400, so your pain threshold will need to be that much higher. I've made a number of comments about niggles, but these are minor things and not a comment on the overall quality of the machine, which shows a lot of thought and ingenuity. Mine has been very reliable in six months of ownership.

    5. Support.

    You didn't ask about this, but I'll mention it. Given the newness of the machine and that Decent is in HK with no local representative (although one tech lives in QLD), pre-purchase I was worried about support. I haven't had any problems with the DE, other than having to reset the bluetooth connection occasionally, so I haven't had to test it out. But I have seen the support provided to other users via the Decent forum, and I'd say that it's exemplary. John is very supportive of users. There's very good hardware upgrade support, and you have direct access to the techs. You just don't see this level of support and a desire to do the right thing by customers anywhere near often enough in the world of commerce.

    Now please excuse me while I go and pull another shot.
    G'day Gunda

    Great review Gunda. Provides some extra balance.
    "You have to be careful with water quality. In order to get the control over flow and pressure and temp, the DE seems to have narrow diameter plumbing (I'm sure I saw John say something to this effect somewhere in a post.) I think it's more susceptible to scale than the average E61 machine. The good news is that it's easier to descale the DE - use citric acid and the built-in descale routine - but with hard water you'd be doing it more often with the DE. Easier to use the right water."
    I would never have thought of that as I only use double filtered rainwater (Rockingham rainwater on my roof is pretty clean to start with, I also filter it both in and out of the tank). I only descaled my DE1 for the first time about a month ago (i.e. the 7 or 8 month point) as it took that long to develop a faint but perceptible taint. I refuse to feed any espresso machine with poor water.

    FWIW, I always do a "taste test" before setting up any new machine. Put (say) 50ml of water through the group + empty basket into a ceramic cup or glass (I use borosilicate these days). Cover the cup / glass with a tight fitting lid and wait for it to cool down. Compare it to the same water at the same temperature to some that has not gone through the machine. That difference you can taste is exactly the taint that every coffee out of that machine will start with. Most machines are a dismal fail - especially brass boilers which can impart a "fish oil taint".

    Bluetooth frailty: I know gc has had some bluetooth snafus' (V1.0 group), my V1.1 has not missed a beat. Mind you, I suspect the V1.0 does not charge the tablet as well either as gc also has an issue with that. I found out the hard way that leaving the machine on standby does not charge the tablet (only done that once, 5 hours flattened the tablet battery). Considering the Decent takes "forever" to warm up (3 minutes, almost exactly double the 6910 sitting next to it's 75 seconds + 15 second preflush) it is not worth using standby much.
    "The DE gives you more options to get things right, and also to get things wrong. Many users posting on the Decent forum say that they've learnt much more, more quickly, on the DE, and I think that even Tampit was saying something along those lines."
    ...and yes - the DE1 certainly "helps" you learn a lot very quickly. Those real time graphs of pressure, flow and temperature give instant feedback. Invaluable for newbies and experienced users alike.

    Like you, I suspect the DE1 will continue to improve. I still regard it as a late prototype / early beta which is well worth buying as an early adopter.

    I hope this helps.

    TampIt

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  • gunda
    replied
    Well spotted / recalled. Now that you mention it, I did see that.

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  • level3ninja
    replied
    I'm pretty sure John mentioned another difference between 1.1 and 1.3 that was not upgradeable like the group will be. I think it was internal hardware.

    Edit: found it. Post #2058 on this page https://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-e...oughts-42.html

    Originally posted by decentespresso View Post
    The v1.3 machines will be about A$440 more expensive, as they also have the new real-time group head controller on them. The current v1.1 machines are upgradable to this controller, at the same price.

    But the bump up in steam speed is not something you can upgrade.

    -john

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  • gunda
    replied
    Also very hard for a Decent owner to tell, unless they've come from a lever machine and are used to making on-the-fly flow adjustments. One advantage of buying a V1.1 now is you then have the option of whether to move to a V1.3, whereas once the V1.3 starts shipping, I assume (but don't know for sure) that you won't then be able to buy a V1.1. You could ask John that question in the long thread, since he may not see this one or may decide not to join in. The other assumption I'm making is that the upgrade option will always be available, since it uses the exact same parts as will be fitted to the V1.3.

    I was not concerned about your posts. Your questions are entirely understandable, and I had a pre-purchase grumble of my own on some forum or other about the inability to read the Decent forum. I was more concerned about the reliability issue of a new, sophisticated machine, and not being able to see the sorts of issues that owners have had. To answer your next question, there have been a smattering of issues. Occasionally a part here or there fails, or a connection works loose, but Decent quickly pull out all stops to get that machine fixed asap. Water quality issues are another theme. The only recent systemic issue has been the (custom) short USB charging cable not connecting properly and the tablet going flat. Not a problem I've had, but a number of owners have. It's not hard to work around this - just use a longer standard cable and normal charger. Another new cable is currently being tested by those who've had problems, shipped to them for free. You get the idea.

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  • 338
    replied
    Gunda, thanks for the update, that is the first time I had seen mentioned that the new grouphead is mandatory to use once installed. It seemed a good upgrade, but now can see why you would want to consider how it worked with everything else. Very hard for a non Decent user to tell.


    Apologies to you if you think my posts were to spread FUD, I actually wanted to remove it at my end. The reality is the average Aus user posts one or two lines on their Decent experience, if at all. For a machine which is a total change of pace, from the outside you would think it warrants more.
    Last edited by 338; 18 October 2019, 09:37 AM.

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  • gunda
    replied
    No, I haven't decided about the V1.3 group head upgrade. I'm still thinking .... I feel like I've spent one heck of lot of money on gear in the last 12 months. I'm not sure I'd use it, but it may make it easier to sell if ever I should decide to (absolutely no plans). It may make it easier to instruct others to use the machine, not that it's hard, but a couple of buttons is simpler than a tablet interface.

    John posts occasional updates with progress pictures and videos about the new group head from the Decent Forum, but he usually posts them here as well, so I don't think we know a lot more than you'd read here. I don't recall a definite date. I wouldn't start holding my breath just yet. My understanding is that the group head is the only difference to the V1.1. So if you want it now and are prepared to do the upgrade with supplied parts, buy now. If you can wait and don't want to do the upgrade, then wait. The upgrade is the same price as the price differential for the machine. FYI, once a machine has the upgrade, shots / steam / hot water can only be started and stopped from the group head. Apparently this is required by some compliance regime that I don't understand.

    No idea about the time frame for those shipments. When I bought mine six months ago, they were still cranking up the supply chain and there was a genuine queue. So you knew the rough time frame for the last 40 shipments because you knew (from forum reports) how fast they were making them. But the supply capacity is now much faster, there's virtually no queue, and so there's no way of knowing the speed of orders. John is pretty transparent, but some information must be some commercial-in-confidence.

    Originally posted by woodhouse View Post
    after reading through threads like this, https://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-e...ea-mini-4.html, i would definitely trust john over LM to support me if the machine had issues.
    Not familiar with the LM issue, but I think that's an accurate assessment of John. A scholar and a gentleman.

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  • 338
    replied
    Gunda, thank you for the review. Yours and tamp its now rate as the two longest user reviews i have seen, even including user reviews on HB.

    Out of interest, will you get the new head upgrade (assuming you know more through the users forum)? Do you think a potential purchaser should wait as it isn't far away? Will it include the mouthfeel upgrade?

    It sounds like there is a large number of machines in Australia now, which is good news. Was that 6 shipping in the last week, month or what timeframe?

    Ps Forgot to add Luca to the review list, he also wrote a tremendous review, well woth searching for Faatshank
    Last edited by 338; 18 October 2019, 12:31 AM.

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  • gunda
    replied
    I can see that of the last 40 machines shipped, 15 were non-US, and of those, 6 were to Australia. I'm not sure that figure is representative. I haven't bothered to look at the queue for some time - the proportion of sales to the US didn't seem as high as 62.5% in the past, and sales to Australia have always been a decent number. The impression you get from the forum is of a reasonable geographic spread.

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  • roosterben
    replied
    That is true about LMs terrible service and the fact they took their premium home machines away from retailers is poor business.

    Also I think John is a pioneer who is innovating in a space where there hasn't been a lot going on.

    If I had 4k to spend I would prob buy a dual boiler E61 machine with pressure profiling. But early on I never thought I would buy a Niche so who knows in a few years time.

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  • SanderP
    replied
    I can't recall a vendor that displays the same level of transparency.

    This coupled with rapid development and release iterations seems much more suited to a direct sales model than trying to manage via a third party.

    Full credit to the team, I don't have one, probably won't buy one but am always fascinated to read the posts

    Cheers

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  • Yelta
    replied
    There has recently been mention of about 1000 Decent machines having been sold so far.

    Would be interesting to know how many of these have come to Australia.

    For obvious reasons I suspect the main thrust has been directed at the U.S. market.

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  • gunda
    replied
    John Buckman did once mention on the Decent forum the problems he encountered in getting his machine into espresso machine retailers. No Australian retailers were mentioned, but one high-profile US one was. The problematic issue was how they would position it in their range and market it, rather than how they price it. This is an important decision for a new manufacturer of a machine unlike any other on the market trying to demonstrate progress and establish brand reputation. You want the retailer to understand it and position & sell it on its merits, and it wasn't clear to him that was going to happen. So he stuck to direct sales. Perhaps that might change once the brand is better established, but as you say, would put upwards pressure on price.

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  • woodhouse
    replied
    Originally posted by roosterben View Post
    Decent's direct to consumer model is much like Tesla or Apple, if it wasn't then IMHO a 4k machine becomes a 5-6k machine which is not good for us snobs and brings it into Linea Mini / GS3 territory. At that price level I would rather bank on a machine I know will last 20-30 years.
    after reading through threads like this, https://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-e...ea-mini-4.html, i would definitely trust john over LM to support me if the machine had issues.

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  • roosterben
    replied
    Gunda I think free speech is/was/should be part and parcel of CoffeeSnobs.

    The Niche was in the same category until it jumped in price by 30% to $1299 and is now available locally. We should probably expect the same if Decent scales up their production capacity enough to supply retailers, they would have to increase their margins to allow for retailers to make some many and cover stocking parts etc.

    I think one difference with Decent is they are the manufacturer and distributor. This is not a conflict of interest but it is a fact. But even if they weren't the Decent is so unique you can't compare it to anything. It's not like E61 machines where 10+ brands are selling very similar machines.

    Decent's direct to consumer model is much like Tesla or Apple, if it wasn't then IMHO a 4k machine becomes a 5-6k machine which is not good for us snobs and brings it into Linea Mini / GS3 territory. At that price level I would rather bank on a machine I know will last 20-30 years.

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  • gunda
    replied
    I invite readers, and especially those considering the DE, to compare the review of current sponsor John Buckman's Decent espresso machines by former sponsor Chris of Talk Coffee commercial link removed as per Site Posting Policy (and part 2 commercial link removed as per Site Posting Policy which is where the quotes above were sourced), with the review by the Home Barista team here. [I trust these links are ok - IMHO they're reviews, not commercial.] I've posted links to both parts of Chris's review, because there is some important context missing. Note in particular:

    "Talk Coffee expressed interest in possibly ranging some Decent models early in the process and early discussions with John looked promising. Whilst margins were really tight, it looked as if it might be possible to have a bricks and mortar outlet in Australia where those who were interested in a machine that they could see, touch and sample. Sadly, between discussion and delivery, there was a change of heart and anyone who wants a Decent will be purchasing from Hong Kong in Aussie dollars. Support and service also currently reside in Hong Kong (Though there are talks of one day having a service facility somewhere in Australia)."

    I agonised long and hard about my Decent purchase and read everything I could find. I came across Chris's review fairly early on, it's not hard to find (should the links be deleted), but it played no part in my decision. It read to me like the writings of a jilted suitor. Do the comparison with the HB review and make up your own mind. See also the video review by James Hoffman.

    I'm not saying that the machine is perfect or is for everyone. No machine is. But I think it's pretty darn good and it suits me. For balance, here is the summary of the HB review:

    "Simply stated, the Decent Espresso DE1 is an espresso machine for the 21st century. After 6 months with the DE1, I'm hooked. The DE1 pulls great shots of espresso, offers unparalleled extraction control and feedback, and makes other espresso machines feel, well, primitive by comparison. Moreover, it's put a lot of the excitement and fun back into espresso for me. Highly recommended."

    I also think that current sponsors are entitled to more respect than to have the mean-spirited comments of former sponsors posted on CS.
    Last edited by Javaphile; 17 October 2019, 04:19 PM. Reason: Commercial links removed

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