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Profitec Pro 700 front external drain port

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  • Spoon
    replied
    Hi Cats,

    Our water is filtered - but I can see your point, those marks do look suspicious! We have a kettle which we also fill with water from the filter (it has a bench tap as well) and it has very little scale build-up.

    Interesting that they've changed the design of that panel between V1 and V2. Maybe they thought additional ventilation might help to dry out any drips that make their way down there?

    Cheers,
    Spoon

    Leave a comment:


  • Cats
    replied
    Hi Spoon, thanks for the pics.

    Your machine is V1, which makes it even more interesting because from pictures i have seen most v1 machines have a smaller gap between the lip than the v2 machines which means yours should be more protected from this.

    V2 has perferations where your stickers are - if water ran down the front it would go inside the machine on mine.

    Is your water filtered? It looks hard from the water marks being left behind, but i might be wrong

    Leave a comment:


  • Spoon
    replied
    Hi Cats,

    Some pictures for you. This one I took last week.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Coffee machine rust May 20.jpg Views:	0 Size:	217.8 ** ID:	829619

    You can see the rust clearly to the left of the switch, and there's also a little bit forming on the right side as well. I didn't take a pic underneath (it's damn heavy!) but could feel that the rust extends back about 3-4mm.

    I also had a pic of this same area from October 2019 - we had taken the machine in for service and this was an easy way to make sure we had the setup right when we re-installed it! At the time we didn't notice an issue (and unfortunately neither did the servicer - I guess they were concerned mostly with the working of the machine). However when I looked back I realised that there was tell-tale staining happening along the join to the left of the switch.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Coffee machine rust Oct 19.jpg Views:	0 Size:	346.3 ** ID:	829620

    Hope this is useful.

    Another thing I've noticed that I think is contributing is that the hole in the drain port on our machine is not aligned vertically - it deviates a little to the right. The reason I think this is contributing to the issue is that often the water that drips doesn't end up going through the grill in the drip tray, but rather pools to the right of the hole. Now, when the machine is not actively being used (but is either on waiting for use, or is warming up/cooling down) we have taken to moving the grill so it is half in and half out of the drip tray, and this seems to be a good solution as the water can go straight into the drip tray without trickling over the back.

    I can't answer your question about if the rust is behind the stickers as I didn't take it apart myself. However we did have it investigated by the servicer and they didn't mention anything about this. Based on what we can see and feel, it seems like the rust is affecting the bottom panel and not the vertical one with the stickers on. It's not so clear in the pictures but the paint had bubbled (and then lifted away to expose the rust); there doesn't appear to be any bubbling on the panel with the stickers.

    Cheers,
    Spoon

    Leave a comment:


  • Cats
    replied
    Im not sure how much of a gap your machine has beneath the lip and the drip tray, but as soon as the machine has heated up, if u take a torch (depending on how much natural light you have) you will see some beads of water on the black chassis under the lip because the whole region gets condensation, not just the stainless steel areas.

    Depnding on ambient conditions in your room, this can then evaporate in minutes, or still be lingering a while later, and can also run down the chassis a bit before evaporating.

    This over time, coupled with any spurts coming from the discharge nozzel of the e61 can cause repeated wetting of the surface, which is what eventually rusts it.

    If u use the steam boiler a lot for hot water you may also get repeated heatup cycles which could also re-condense moisture.

    All of this is fairly insignificant until you repeat it every day or multiple times a day for a couple of years then it can lead to wearing of the paint.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazyhakins
    replied
    If it’s just causing an issue further down the line, I’d question whether it’s an improvement at all. I’ve watched the vacuum relief valve do it’s thing in my P500, a bit of water appears around the valve and boils off into steam. It’s not getting spurted all over internals, if anything, it’s escaping through the vent holes right above the valve as a gas. It’s a negligent amount of moisture I’d have thought. I’d be tempted to take the tube off the valve.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cats
    replied
    Yes the tube is an improvement over spraying it all over the interior of the case, however the issue is that it is then sprayed over the front instead. The flow really needs to be guided into the drip tray, rather than allowing gravity to do the work. It may be fine for most drips, but not vapour :P

    The other part that gets me is why more machines don't have a longer discharge nozzel like the vesuvious, where an overly pressurised discharge will still be pushed into the drip tray and not able to gush out across the surface of the tray.

    Then theres the drip tray grid, which is flat meaning water can pool and eventually stain it, vs rods like the lelit bianca..

    I know nothing is purfect but there's definitly improvements in the designs to be had. The drip tray grid was definitely chosen fot asthetics over pure functionality.
    i guess thats ok though.. i didnt choose the lelit because i liked the profitec design better, and asthetics did play a part there

    Leave a comment:


  • crazyhakins
    replied
    The reason you are mostly seeing these drips during heat up sis because the 700 has a tube that runs off the vacuum release valve and feeds out into the drip tray. Most machines dont have a tube running off the vacuum release valve, the moisture just boils off the valve but does stay in the internal compartment of the machine exposing those parts to moisture. Hence the move to the tube.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cats
    replied
    Spoon do you have photo of what it looks like?

    Also was any rust on the inside of the frame behind the perherrated water and steam symbols?

    Cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • Spoon
    replied
    Hi Cats,

    Thank you for these tips - they are very helpful! The nail polish trick sounds good too - some of the enamel has blistered off where the rust is so I will mention this idea to my husband and see what he thinks. I believe that the servicer put a water-repellant on there but I don't know how long that will last.

    I agree with you - it would've been good if they'd used stainless steel for the frame! We are very annoyed that this has happened.

    Spoon

    Leave a comment:


  • Cats
    replied
    Hi Spoon, thanks for confirming this!! Sometimes i wonder if im just looking for problems but with an engineering hat on it's difficult to overlook things that make you go hmmmm.

    I have been monitoring how it works in the time since the inital post, the water that appears there is virtually entirely from the initial steam boiler heatup phase before the valve is engaged, when steam is venting out the drain port.

    I have found if you run a microfibre cloth in the gap between the lip and the drip tray, you can dry the beads of water before they have time to cool and run down significantly.

    This isn't necessarily perfect but i think it greatly minimises the chance of rust as you aren't waiting for the water to dry and evaoprate, which depending on ambient temps can take a while (it is also not well exposed to the air and so on).

    Aside from the initial heatup, the only times you can get water there are
    - if the driptray is too full and water splashes out of when discharging
    -depending on how you operate the discharge valve..by this i mean if you do a water backflush and the shower screen has been dried/wiped with paper towel, i have found it will consistently discharge more agressively, than if the shower screen is wet, where all the diacharge will go straight down.

    The other scenario is essentially if you have any water sitting on the driptray at the back, when you add additional water to it, this will push the water over the back edge, so you need to ensure that your drip tray is dry.

    The steam want itself and nornal operation dont cause any issues that i can tell, i purge steam into a towel, and as long as you manage the discharge nozzel as described above, you can get some fairly clean usage out of it.

    Mind you, this is all based on 6 months of use, i don't know how long rust took to form on yours, and im hoping to never see it on mine.

    Another thing i have done seal anywhere i saw exposed metal on the front of the frame and paint over with black nailpolish, this helps to seal and protect the frame against moisture.

    ..i really wish they'd just gone with stainless steel for the frame and then everything would be much simpler

    Leave a comment:


  • Spoon
    replied
    Hi Cats and Paul,

    Just wanted to let you know that rust in this area is a justified concern - we also have a Profitec Pro 700 (almost 2 years old now) and some rust has developed in this area. We just had this checked by our servicer, and unfortunately it's not something covered by warranty. Fortunately it is isolated to this spot and is not affecting the working of the machine, so we just need to keep it dry.

    We use both the steam wand and hot water wand regularly (hot water for rinsing portafilters). Normally we would wipe the machine down at least daily but we will have to increase this. If we had noticed water obviously trickling down behind the drip tray we would clean that. Generally, we have noticed that water beads easily on the drip tray under the valve and up under the lip, and guess that this is trickling down at times (possibly also after we have cleaned, as the machine is cooling).

    It's good to be aware of this as a potential issue before any rust develops. This is a bit of a design flaw in an otherwise good machine.

    Hope you're enjoying your coffee!

    Spoon

    Leave a comment:


  • Cats
    replied
    I was wondering if it was powdercoated but i dont know what to look for in the differences between paint and powdercoating (im aware of the differences in process but not what to look for in the end product)
    The powdercoated chassis on the Syncronika is distinct and also called out in the marketing material

    I do agree with you though, im probably overthinking but you know how it is with things you invest in, you want to do everything you can to ensure they last as long as youd like them to.

    You dont need to remove the drip tray (necessarily) after the steam at startup you will see some condensatipn droplets if you shine a light in between the lip and the drip tray (under the discharge vent)

    I am fairly certain at this point everyone's machine is behaving the same, and i wish they'd made it stainless steel but i guess if yours is also condensing there and you have no wear in the powdercoat then its a non issue

    Leave a comment:


  • Plane24
    replied
    Hi Cats

    Like you I do get some steam and a few drops of water during warmup which stop with a click once the temperature gets to 100C and the valve closes. There is naturally some condensation from the steam around the outlet which evaporates fairly quickly. I have never removed the drip tray at that point to check but will try to do so tomorrow and let you know what I find. Based on my test using the steam wand I would expect there will be some condensation - the steam is under pressure of course.

    On my machine the black area looks to be powder coated (not simply painted) and any condensation evaporates quickly. The steam is by definition distilled water and so is any condensation. Profitec and ECM have a well deserved reputation for German engineering, design and high quality manufacture so I am confident this has been thoroughly considered and tested over many years.

    I would encourage you to relax and stop worrying about it. Just enjoy you new machine and the great coffee it’s producing.

    Regards
    Paul

    Leave a comment:


  • Cats
    replied
    Hi Paul, this references what i believe the machine is doing:
    https://coffeetechniciansguild.org/b...vacuum-breaker

    "When heating, this allows hot expanding air to escape until it is replaced by true steam pressure."

    On startup hot hair will mimic steam, giving only a short blast of hot air after which the unit will heat normally.

    Id be very interested if you could have a look at that point in the startup if you get condensation/hot air/steam for a few seconds and then you will hear the breaker engage (a quiet little 'thuppp' sound then no more steam)

    Edit: this post describes it too
    https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/394...acuum-breaker/

    Leave a comment:


  • Cats
    replied
    Hi Paul,

    Its definitly not the steam wand, this is only during startup.
    As the steam boiler hits maybe 96-100C steam and condensation come out of the vacuum discharge valve until you hear it abbruptly shutoff at 100C (as designed). The condensation heats a radius of around 5cm of the surface around the discharge nozzel. If you look under the lip at this point in the process there are little beads of moisture under the lip on the chassis.
    I cannot think that anyone elses is behaving differently here, the steam is pretty much going to go everywhere intil the valve shuts off, which doesnt happen until 100C.

    Does yours have steam coming out at startup?
    Of course, if you have the steam boiler switched off this wont happen, as its strictly associated with the steam boiler in the last few degrees of heatup before the vaccume valve seals at 100C.

    Ive found if you block the gap under the lip, the steam fogs up as far as the pressure gauges.

    Leave a comment:

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