Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

DE1+ vs Bianca vs Pro 700?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by TampIt View Post
    PS: Caffeinator's
    "Decent: I have played with it and I just can't get past the souped up appliance feel of it. This is not to say it won't do really good things, but for coffee predominantly under milk, it's overkill. It's not the machine for me. Not to say it's not a good machine, but it looks, sounds and feels $1k to me, not $5k."
    is IMO just plain wrong.
    We shall then agree to disagree again then! Seems we do that a fair bit.

    Like you, I have extensive experience on and in a multitude of machines from Tata through to Ferrari. .

    FWIW, I ditched my DE1+ after 3 weeks. The bloke who purchased it did the same. Just goes to show that others are clearly "just plain wrong" as well.

    Regardless for milky coffee in the main, the Decent is way beyond what our OP will ever require. In addition, the reality that there is no local service nor support (according to their website) will be a dealbreaker for many.

    Comment


    • #17
      I've purposefully tried to avoid commenting on the value offered by the Decent Espresso machine. I think that it's easy for discussions such as this to devolve into fanboys defending their own stuff, so I hope that I've maintained some credibility by pointing out both the good and the bad aspects of machines that I've used.

      There are a number of things that are bad about the DE that are not arguable and that any prospective purchaser will have to make peace with. As Caffeinator says, it's small, lightweight, new, doesn't have a local service network. I also really hate the vibe pump pulse noises, which of course sound similar to other machines that use vibe pumps, which are usually cheaper machines.

      It's easy to understand why the DE is priced like it is. The DE has a lot of stuff in it that has been invented and designed from scratch. For example, even the water path through the group head is made of two intricately engineered and interlocking pieces with a complex water flow pathway that results in an even distribution of water before the shower screen is even screwed in. That water flow pathway is the result of fluid modelling by an engineer. By comparison, most manufacturers of e61 machines simply use the off-the-shelf part that basically uses a screw at the end of a pipe to disperse water. Decent is carrying a lot of R&D costs. Likewise, the DE has a lot of stuff in it full stop. It has a stack of temperature and pressure sensors and multiple heating elements. Instead of having boilers that are just metal tubes with end plates welded onto them, it has custom-designed thermoblocks and an elaborate system of valves and the custom-designed mixing manifold. Setting aside entirely whether the stuff that is in the machine is any good or not, it cannot be argued that the machine lacks work or complexity, which are two reasons that might justify price.

      So what is it that might make someone think that the DE should be cheap? Materials cost might well be one thing. For example, the DE has a lot of circuit boards in it and teflon tubes. But so do high end espresso machines; La Marzocco is using nylon tubes in things like the modbar and most machines have a gicar brain box in them. Weight and heft might be another thing. Of course, the whole point of the DE not using a boiler is that it doesn't need to be big, so whereas a bigger machine might be better when it uses a boiler for thermal stability, that is not an indicator of quality for the DE. The DE actually has better stability by being smaller, since it needs to maintain the water reservoir at a base temperature. Maybe it's materials quality? Many high end machines are using teflon tubing and high end machines have parts that need replacement occasionally, such as elements that burn out and which it is accepted are parts that will need to be replaced from time to time. Most machines have circuit boards in them (and without cooling fans, I might add). So what specific parts in the DE is it that people think aren't high quality? The ultem mixing chamber? The vibe pump? But - as much as I hate vibe pumps with a passion - I'm grudgingly forced to admit that they're used in things like vending machines and the best comparison of vibe vs rotary to date is still Ken Fox and Jim Schulman's thorough shootout between two otherwise identical machines in which they could not pick the difference blind.

      So I struggle to see exactly which components of the DE mean that it should be cheaper, and by how much, compared with an e61 box. Most of the e61 boxes look like they have fairly little R&D in them and they use mainly standard components. Now I'll accept that they probably need a bit of work to tune everything, but nowhere near as much work as has gone into making the DE. To my mind, the question shouldn't be why is the DE so expensive, but, rather, why is any e61 box machine worth any more than, say, the $2k or so that a BDB goes for? They're so drastically much simpler and made from standard parts that it really does feel that anything more than $2k is a bit of a try on. The mass produced metal parts can't be that much more expensive than the components in the DE. I suspect the true answer is probably that labour in Italy simply commands a higher price than labour in Hong Kong (or Shenzen via HK).

      In spite of all of this, I'm the first to admit that I hate the light weight of the DE and its size and vibe pump noise make it feel cheap. This was the emotional response that I had to confront when buying the DE. Frankly, I really think that they ought to have made the machine a little bigger, put it in a chassis with a thick metal frame in it, put a lot of acoustic insulation around the vibe pumps and put a lead plate in the bottom of it. Then they could have put a few nice heavy clicky switches on the front and the whole thing would have seemed much more satisfactory.

      I don't know ... I come away from all of this thinking what is a reasonable price for any espresso machine?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Caffeinator View Post
        We shall then agree to disagree again then! Seems we do that a fair bit.

        Like you, I have extensive experience on and in a multitude of machines from Tata through to Ferrari. .

        FWIW, I ditched my DE1+ after 3 weeks. The bloke who purchased it did the same. Just goes to show that others are clearly "just plain wrong" as well.

        Regardless for milky coffee in the main, the Decent is way beyond what our OP will ever require. In addition, the reality that there is no local service nor support (according to their website) will be a dealbreaker for many.
        G'day Caffeinator

        It took me 4 1/2 months to tame a Strada, which is far less complex than the DE1. Getting a DE1 to dance in three weeks would be too tall a mountain for me to climb (other than using presets). Anyone who wants instant gratification from their DE1 will probably be disappointed and "move it on up the road". Having said that, I would still like to know what egregious fault annoyed you and your mate so much?

        My own clearly stated main "DE1 issue" is that it does not shoot and froth simultaneously - and I am back to having an extra machine on the bench as a milk frother after a few years of a lowly (very underrated) 6910 being capable of both. FWIW, in 10 months I have only steamed one lot of milk in the DE1 to test it worked (it did).

        My other annoyance is more general but minor (until you have 40+ people cuing for a cuppa) - like far too many other "new tech machines (including digital cameras and DVR recorders)" there is a delay between hitting "start" and getting action. With my La Pav and most earlier commercial machines there is no delay. The DE1 is about middle in terms of that delay - and being "old school" those delays still drive me mental. FYI, the 6910 is just over 1 second. As a result, I am highly likely to get the DE1Cafe simply to fix those issues - it will shoot and froth, the delay is down to 2 seconds (still 1.5 seconds too long in my view). It will also save some needed bench space.

        Moving on: The OP was looking at the DE1 / Bianca range or I would not have taken the time to comment. No way is it "way beyond what our OP will ever require" unless you are assuming he is unwilling / unable to tinker and / or the OP does not care what his cuppa tastes like. Fairly specious either way.

        Local service: your call. Perth has only one repairer I would trust and numerous cowboys - look up my own experience with 5 Senses on Journeyman's epic "my new machine" thread https://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-e...tml#post507869 - they actually replaced the collar on my 6910 by forcing an ill fitting (by design) 6900 one and bending the frame to fit! Some guys should not be trusted with a cheap pod machine repair. Several of my friends have had botched repairs from other servicing guys over here - and almost all of them I ended up fixing myself, often with no parts needed (unless, like three other machines from other "repair cowboys", the idiot used the wrong part in the repair).

        Over to the DE1 service: Twice now John at Decent has sent me upgraded (minor) parts for my DE1 on the basis that some of them have failed in other machines. All my original parts are still fine, these were unannounced free "replacements" off his own bat. I cannot fault that level of service. Perhaps that is why the DE1 is a relatively expensive machine - you actually get good service with it (sigh, why is that unusual?).

        A brief comment from Luca's post about rotary vs vibratory pumps - my La Pav (rotary) makes worse coffee than my 6910 (vibe) for two pump related reasons
        1) The rotary pumps is about the size (and probably power) of an old Holden starter motor.
        2) It is an instant start pump (like 90+% of rotaries in espresso machines).
        As a result of all that power it cannot even be easily fooled into doing preinfusion (i.e. flicking it on briefly). Any light to medium roast needs some preinfusion to really shine and the La Pav simply cannot deliver.

        Enjoy your cuppa


        TampIt
        Last edited by TampIt; 5 January 2020, 09:03 PM.

        Comment

        Working...
        X