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Cimbali M21 Plus Overpressure Problem

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  • #16
    Note just to the right of the bottom most wire. That wire is connected to the coil, which you can see just to the right of that connection through an opening in the outer box. That is where they label the coils voltage. In this case 12VDC, S&S's 12D, the same as is in my M28 2-group.


    Java "An international machine" phile
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    • #17
      I'd replace it with a SSR or 2.. one for each element

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      • #18
        He'll need 3 as there's 3 elements. It's also a lot of additional heat to get rid of in an already hot environment. Room is also a probable issue for SSR's. Shopping around as I did Zakal should be able to do it with another contactor for a fraction of the price of moving to an SSR system. And in maybe 20 years or so they'll have to think about replacing it again.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Javaphile View Post
          Note just to the right of the bottom most wire. That wire is connected to the coil, which you can see just to the right of that connection through an opening in the outer box. That is where they label the coils voltage. In this case 12VDC, S&S's 12D, the same as is in my M28 2-group.


          Java "An international machine" phile
          Hmm, I had thought it definitely must not be a 12v one because the wires that go into that section marked 12VDC that you are referring to (see the first photo) are much thinner than the wires going into the other parts, plus there are all the markings on the right hand side about AC-3 ranging from 230-600V, and then below about HP1 and HP3 ranging from 115 to 575v.

          I had assumed that the 12V marking was just to show where the 12v "signal wire" was supposed to go.

          Or am I misunderstanding how these things work?

          I just want to be absolutely sure before i either order a replacement, or start hunting around for replacement parts like you did.

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          • #20
            The wires are much thinner because they're carrying 12VDC rather than 220/240VAC.

            The signal wire would go in the empty slot where no wires currently are. The 12VDC marking has nothing to do with the signal circuit. If you open the contactor up you will see that 12VDC is written directly on the coil, not on the contactor box.

            Not to trace out the entire electrical system on your machine but when the pressure stat determines the boiler pressure has fallen below its set point a series of circuits are closed that result in a 12VDC charge being sent down the lines connected to the coil in the contactor. The coil activates which moves the shunt causing the 4 sets of points to make contact and close the 4 circuits. The 3 circuits furthest from the coil are the 'Power' circuits that complete the circuits that allow mains power (220/240VAC in your neck of the woods I believe.) to flow to the 3 heating elements in the boiler. The 4th switched circuit, unused in this application, is rated for less power and is called the 'Signal' circuit as it is typically used to signal another device/system/circuit that the contactor has been turned on or off.


            Java "Your contactor has a 12VDC coil" phile
            Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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            • #21
              Zakal1 I've sent you a PM about a replacement contactor

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Javaphile View Post
                The wires are much thinner because they're carrying 12VDC rather than 220/240VAC.

                The signal wire would go in the empty slot where no wires currently are. The 12VDC marking has nothing to do with the signal circuit. If you open the contactor up you will see that 12VDC is written directly on the coil, not on the contactor box.

                Not to trace out the entire electrical system on your machine but when the pressure stat determines the boiler pressure has fallen below its set point a series of circuits are closed that result in a 12VDC charge being sent down the lines connected to the coil in the contactor. The coil activates which moves the shunt causing the 4 sets of points to make contact and close the 4 circuits. The 3 circuits furthest from the coil are the 'Power' circuits that complete the circuits that allow mains power (220/240VAC in your neck of the woods I believe.) to flow to the 3 heating elements in the boiler. The 4th switched circuit, unused in this application, is rated for less power and is called the 'Signal' circuit as it is typically used to signal another device/system/circuit that the contactor has been turned on or off.


                Java "Your contactor has a 12VDC coil" phile
                ahh okay, I think i get it now. There are really two voltages that matter: 1) the voltage of the wire that carries "message" from the pressurestat to open or close...this is the coil voltage, and 2) the voltage of the Power circuit (which is determined by what device youre trying to operate with it)


                Which means I need a 12VDC coil and a 240VAC power circuit right? (so pretty much part# 700653-12 here: https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/cimba...rds-and-gauges) which is unfortunately seemingly no longer sold.

                EDIT: Actually, this seems to be it here: https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/700653-12-relay-ca4-9c-12v-dc-m30-dosatron right?

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                • #23
                  You are correct about the voltages.
                  That second link is the right part. It's a rebadged Sprecher CA8 (the series that replaced the CA4 that's in your machine)
                  Last edited by level3ninja; 23 October 2020, 02:18 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Part number 700653-12 at this link: https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/70065...c-m30-dosatron (Yours is a bad link.)

                    Note it is an Allen-Bradley and if you zoom in on the side its model/catalog number is exactly the same as I gave in post 14 above, 100-K09*10 So yes that should be a drop-in replacement for your contactor.


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                    • #25
                      Happy to report that after picking up a replacement CA4 with 240v coil from Ninja, and swapping out the coil with my existing 12v one, the Cimbali is back up and running perfectly again. Thanks to all for the awesome advice. Would never have figured this out without you. Hopefully this thread can help others too, because the only other explanations i could find for my "symptoms" were "overfilled boiler" and pressurestat issues.

                      Thanks again!

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                      • #26
                        Good to hear you got it all sorted.


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