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Cimbali M21 Plus Overpressure Problem

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  • Javaphile
    replied
    Good to hear you got it all sorted.


    Java "It's alive!" phile

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  • Zakal1
    replied
    Happy to report that after picking up a replacement CA4 with 240v coil from Ninja, and swapping out the coil with my existing 12v one, the Cimbali is back up and running perfectly again. Thanks to all for the awesome advice. Would never have figured this out without you. Hopefully this thread can help others too, because the only other explanations i could find for my "symptoms" were "overfilled boiler" and pressurestat issues.

    Thanks again!

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  • Javaphile
    replied
    Part number 700653-12 at this link: https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/70065...c-m30-dosatron (Yours is a bad link.)

    Note it is an Allen-Bradley and if you zoom in on the side its model/catalog number is exactly the same as I gave in post 14 above, 100-K09*10 So yes that should be a drop-in replacement for your contactor.


    Java "" phile

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  • level3ninja
    replied
    You are correct about the voltages.
    That second link is the right part. It's a rebadged Sprecher CA8 (the series that replaced the CA4 that's in your machine)
    Last edited by level3ninja; 23 October 2020, 02:18 PM.

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  • Zakal1
    replied
    Originally posted by Javaphile View Post
    The wires are much thinner because they're carrying 12VDC rather than 220/240VAC.

    The signal wire would go in the empty slot where no wires currently are. The 12VDC marking has nothing to do with the signal circuit. If you open the contactor up you will see that 12VDC is written directly on the coil, not on the contactor box.

    Not to trace out the entire electrical system on your machine but when the pressure stat determines the boiler pressure has fallen below its set point a series of circuits are closed that result in a 12VDC charge being sent down the lines connected to the coil in the contactor. The coil activates which moves the shunt causing the 4 sets of points to make contact and close the 4 circuits. The 3 circuits furthest from the coil are the 'Power' circuits that complete the circuits that allow mains power (220/240VAC in your neck of the woods I believe.) to flow to the 3 heating elements in the boiler. The 4th switched circuit, unused in this application, is rated for less power and is called the 'Signal' circuit as it is typically used to signal another device/system/circuit that the contactor has been turned on or off.


    Java "Your contactor has a 12VDC coil" phile
    ahh okay, I think i get it now. There are really two voltages that matter: 1) the voltage of the wire that carries "message" from the pressurestat to open or close...this is the coil voltage, and 2) the voltage of the Power circuit (which is determined by what device youre trying to operate with it)


    Which means I need a 12VDC coil and a 240VAC power circuit right? (so pretty much part# 700653-12 here: https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/cimba...rds-and-gauges) which is unfortunately seemingly no longer sold.

    EDIT: Actually, this seems to be it here: https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/700653-12-relay-ca4-9c-12v-dc-m30-dosatron right?

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  • level3ninja
    replied
    Zakal1 I've sent you a PM about a replacement contactor

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  • Javaphile
    replied
    The wires are much thinner because they're carrying 12VDC rather than 220/240VAC.

    The signal wire would go in the empty slot where no wires currently are. The 12VDC marking has nothing to do with the signal circuit. If you open the contactor up you will see that 12VDC is written directly on the coil, not on the contactor box.

    Not to trace out the entire electrical system on your machine but when the pressure stat determines the boiler pressure has fallen below its set point a series of circuits are closed that result in a 12VDC charge being sent down the lines connected to the coil in the contactor. The coil activates which moves the shunt causing the 4 sets of points to make contact and close the 4 circuits. The 3 circuits furthest from the coil are the 'Power' circuits that complete the circuits that allow mains power (220/240VAC in your neck of the woods I believe.) to flow to the 3 heating elements in the boiler. The 4th switched circuit, unused in this application, is rated for less power and is called the 'Signal' circuit as it is typically used to signal another device/system/circuit that the contactor has been turned on or off.


    Java "Your contactor has a 12VDC coil" phile

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  • Zakal1
    replied
    Originally posted by Javaphile View Post
    Note just to the right of the bottom most wire. That wire is connected to the coil, which you can see just to the right of that connection through an opening in the outer box. That is where they label the coils voltage. In this case 12VDC, S&S's 12D, the same as is in my M28 2-group.


    Java "An international machine" phile
    Hmm, I had thought it definitely must not be a 12v one because the wires that go into that section marked 12VDC that you are referring to (see the first photo) are much thinner than the wires going into the other parts, plus there are all the markings on the right hand side about AC-3 ranging from 230-600V, and then below about HP1 and HP3 ranging from 115 to 575v.

    I had assumed that the 12V marking was just to show where the 12v "signal wire" was supposed to go.

    Or am I misunderstanding how these things work?

    I just want to be absolutely sure before i either order a replacement, or start hunting around for replacement parts like you did.

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  • Javaphile
    replied
    He'll need 3 as there's 3 elements. It's also a lot of additional heat to get rid of in an already hot environment. Room is also a probable issue for SSR's. Shopping around as I did Zakal should be able to do it with another contactor for a fraction of the price of moving to an SSR system. And in maybe 20 years or so they'll have to think about replacing it again.


    Java "I know which option I went with..." phile

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  • Jackster
    replied
    I'd replace it with a SSR or 2.. one for each element

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  • Javaphile
    replied
    Note just to the right of the bottom most wire. That wire is connected to the coil, which you can see just to the right of that connection through an opening in the outer box. That is where they label the coils voltage. In this case 12VDC, S&S's 12D, the same as is in my M28 2-group.


    Java "An international machine" phile

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  • Zakal1
    replied
    How about this one?

    Click image for larger version

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  • Javaphile
    replied
    prh Yeah I knew the CA4s had been superseded by the CA8s but as I had found the $5 fix I never bothered to verify that both the size and electrical specs were identical, or at least close enough to work, for the two models and so couldn't state that it would work as a replacement.

    The Allen Bradley direct replacement model number is 100-K09⊗10 with the ⊗ being replaced with the coil's voltage code per the following charts:

    AC Voltages [V] 24 110 120 230 240 400 480 600
    50 Hz D
    60 Hz D B VC
    50/60 Hz KJ KF KA KN
    DC Voltages [V] 12 24 110 125 220 250
    Standard ZQ ZJ ZD ZS ZA ZT
    with Integrated Diode DJ


    Java "I think that about covers it" phile

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  • prh
    commented on 's reply
    Out of sheer idle curiosity, I did a quick google, and it seems the CA4 series has been replaced by the CA8 series from the same manufacturer. Same part number applies, just starting with CA8.

    However, I don't think these will quite meet the 'Java "Prefers to pay $5 rather than $200" phile' cheapness criterion.

  • Javaphile
    replied
    Nope. The CA 4-9C-10 is the base model number after which comes another number that identifies what the coil is. The voltage may be shown on another side of the contactor or you may have to open it up to find out.

    DC coils are identified with their voltage followed by a D: 12D, 24D, 48D, 110D, 220D

    AC coils have no identifying letter just their voltage: 12, 24, 48, 120, 208, 240, 380, 480, 575

    Note that those were the standard voltage models made back in the day. What is currently available? <Shrug> Who knows, the CA4 is an obsolete model abandoned back in 2008 as I recall. Plenty of them are still available but it may take some digging. Hence my suggestion(s) in my linked post(s) from when I replaced mine.

    On another note it's a safe bet you need a replacement contactor as shown by the blackening on/around the screws on the left side. That's carbon from the points being destroyed. Plus the indicator tab, what you call the switch, should be all the way to the right with the machine powered off. Left is closed, right is open. I've attached a pic of my contactor just prior to my removing it for replacement. Click on it for the higher res image.


    Java "Carbon what?" phile

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