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La Marzocco GS3 AV vs MP vs Linea Mini

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  • La Marzocco GS3 AV vs MP vs Linea Mini

    Hi gang,

    I've got some serious upgraditis and as such am in the market. I do however have a solid amount of patience and I want to make sure that I make the right decision. The main aim is to invest in something that I will be using for the next 10 or so years as my daily driver (maybe beat upgraditis?). I would say my priorities are espresso quality, consistency and reproducibility, machine engineering and build (quality, noise, looks, maintenance). I've dabbled in flow control but im not entirely a convert, i.e. I've used flow profiling perhaps 20 times max over the last year and find it hard to see myself profile every shot manually.

    I've been in love with the GS3 for a while now, I have the opportunity of getting a stock GS3 AV at a very reasonable price, 2 years old. Im keen on waiting for a second hand deal to come along. I am really tempted by the offer but wonder if the AV would be the right choice.

    1. Would you consider the AV as an espresso enthusiast and purposefully give up pre-infusion and profiling capabilities?
    2. Would you consider the LM as opposed to the GS3 AV at a lower price point?
    3. Should I consider buying a Synchronica / Pro 700?

    Keen on hearing some thoughts.

  • #2
    1. I think the AV still has some pre-infusion control but it's just not a great method of pre-infusion?
    2. If you're not going to profile and don't care about the volumetrics of the AV then definitely. You'd need add some sort of timer/scale to get dialed in though
    3. Profitec Pro 700 is a pretty decent machine and I think you can get flow profiling added to it after the fact if you want

    For the price of an AV I think you could buy a Linea Mini with wooden features and either the needle valve or gear pump mod from Specht/Coffee Machinist. Slam it on full open when you just want 9 bar shots or play around with the pressure using the paddle if you want. Just missing the level of automation of an AV if that's something you'd value.

    Other option would be the Decent if that floats your boat. Can just download profiles and press go.

    Comment


    • yochiya
      yochiya commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I guess the only way I would buy a GS3 at the moment is if I can get a second hand one at a decent price, the LM argument makes a lot of sense though and in that case I might just try and find a second hand LM and chat to Dan from Specht.

      Logically, a Pro 700 or Synchronica makes sense. This makes it harder, not easier

      I like the idea of the Decent but there is a lot about it I don't like. I feel you could easily get so overwhelmed and driven by the data that you might lose a bit of your soul. I also feel maintenance and repair could be harder in AU just due to how the machines are distributed.

  • #3
    To throw another option in the mix, there's always the Rocket R Nine One. I believe that has both manual and programmable profiling.

    Comment


    • #4
      Hi Yochiya,

      I have a GS3 AV model and I ordinally wanted a Manual version of it and also looked at the LM as a lower price. I don't know any better as I never had one but all I can say is I've never been more happy with a coffee machine in my life. I've been through a few, but the consistency mine has given me still makes me shake my head. I use mine at home and also transport the thing onto a coffee cart to use. and its never missed a beat.

      The pressure profiling on it works ok but to be honest I've never been able to tell much difference in the cup as i feel in basic mode so to speak you still get a really great shot of coffee. I must admit I've not played around with the Pressure profiling enough to warrant my view on it being anything be it good or bad.

      I purchased mine just secondhand and it was still in great condition, however I had Rick - coffee machinist do some work on it too look how i wanted. That aside I feel when you get one you are going to be glad you did.

      As mentioned above and i tend to agree as I've always wanted to try one, the R Nine One looks like a very versatile machine and fits your needs.

      the bad things i think that could be improved on it are the drip tray is annoying to re fill, but i believe this is the same on the LM also. Other than that though i cant fault this machine and I guess i spent the extra $$$ on one of these over the LM due to looks and finding one that came under my budget at the time.

      Ive heard mixed reviews on the LM, but wont comment as I have not owned or used one.

      Cheers,

      Chris

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by coffeechris View Post
        Hi Yochiya,

        I have a GS3 AV model and I ordinally wanted a Manual version of it and also looked at the LM as a lower price. I don't know any better as I never had one but all I can say is I've never been more happy with a coffee machine in my life. I've been through a few, but the consistency mine has given me still makes me shake my head. I use mine at home and also transport the thing onto a coffee cart to use. and its never missed a beat.

        The pressure profiling on it works ok but to be honest I've never been able to tell much difference in the cup as i feel in basic mode so to speak you still get a really great shot of coffee. I must admit I've not played around with the Pressure profiling enough to warrant my view on it being anything be it good or bad.

        I purchased mine just secondhand and it was still in great condition, however I had Rick - coffee machinist do some work on it too look how i wanted. That aside I feel when you get one you are going to be glad you did.

        As mentioned above and i tend to agree as I've always wanted to try one, the R Nine One looks like a very versatile machine and fits your needs.

        the bad things i think that could be improved on it are the drip tray is annoying to re fill, but i believe this is the same on the LM also. Other than that though i cant fault this machine and I guess i spent the extra $$$ on one of these over the LM due to looks and finding one that came under my budget at the time.

        Ive heard mixed reviews on the LM, but wont comment as I have not owned or used one.

        Cheers,

        Chris
        Thanks for the really detailed response coffeechris. This is great to hear and very much in line with my thinking.

        I am yet to be blown away by profiling and maybe one day I will be but the consistency you speak of is what I'm truly after. Also, the GS3 makes my heart skip a beat when I see it. I want more of that in my life.

        I love the idea of a coffee cart, any more detail you can share around that?

        When buying second hand, what did you look for? I'd love to reach out to coffee machinist and get him to take a look at the model before I buy + service it. Going custom is on the roadmap for me.

        Cheers

        Comment


        • #6
          i also have the Av and must say i love it. Prior to that i had 2 rockets, the original giotto premium and then the R58. The lamarzocco is my fav of the lot. It has been trouble free for the 3 years i have owned it, and just produces a wonderful cup which is consistent shot after shot after shot.
          I have not bothered playing with any of the pre infusion settings and never will, so pressure profiling machines dont interest me one little bit.
          I like keeping things simple and thee AV does just that whilst producing a wonderful shot.
          I keep thinking of getting a slayer, but then when i have a party at home where i am pumping out lots of coffees, and most milk based, the lamarzocco,, once the volumetric buttons are programmed correctly, make the workflow so damn quick that the idea of swapping over quickly goes from my mind.
          The only down side to the lamarzocco these days is the price brand new

          Comment


          • #7
            The other machine to look at that's similar to the AV would be the Eagle 1 Prima. Probably not helping you narrow down your decision though, sorry.

            Comment


            • #8
              Originally posted by mthomas87 View Post
              The other machine to look at that's similar to the AV would be the Eagle 1 Prima. Probably not helping you narrow down your decision though, sorry.
              The rabbit hole deepens once more. I'm conflicted about whether it's a good or bad thing.

              Yeah I had a peek, they look solid, not many around second hand and guess I'm a touch concerned about

              Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

              Comment


              • mthomas87
                mthomas87 commented
                Editing a comment
                They're pretty new but the reviews seem decent after a few app teething issues. Always tough to tell whether a lack of second hand machines is a good thing (people just want to keep them) or a bad thing (nobody wants to buy them).
                I was really hoping Synesso would have more information about their new domestic machine that they teased earlier this year by now:
                https://www.instagram.com/p/CJgbfiQM..._web_copy_link

            • #9
              Originally posted by yochiya View Post

              The rabbit hole deepens once more. I'm conflicted about whether it's a good or bad thing.

              Yeah I had a peek, they look solid, not many around second hand and guess I'm a touch concerned about

              Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
              Eagle 1 prima.

              They are very new and I've been able to see one working. I dont now if you are based in Melbourne but Antony from Casa Espresso sells them, He is a site sponsor. I was at his shop a little while back and saw it in the flesh and working and I have to say it looks the goods

              Comment


              • #10
                Originally posted by yochiya View Post

                Thanks for the really detailed response coffeechris. This is great to hear and very much in line with my thinking.

                I am yet to be blown away by profiling and maybe one day I will be but the consistency you speak of is what I'm truly after. Also, the GS3 makes my heart skip a beat when I see it. I want more of that in my life.

                I love the idea of a coffee cart, any more detail you can share around that?

                When buying second hand, what did you look for? I'd love to reach out to coffee machinist and get him to take a look at the model before I buy + service it. Going custom is on the roadmap for me.

                Cheers
                The Coffee cart is something i do on the side. Nothing too serious. I wanted to keep it cheap to make and up to date the cart itself cost me under $500. I dont have the machine plumbed in and dont think I ever will. The good thing with it all is it packs up and in the back of my car within half a hour. the hardest part is carrying the machine itself up and down the stairs at home.

                As for looking at the machine when i first bought it it did have a few little scuffs on it however new it had been looked after by its appearance and from what the guy said. So sort of took a chance but i based it on that he had evidence of it having been serviced and he has used filtered water.

                To be honest if one is looking for one of these machines and expecting to get one for under 5k. I personally think it has to be one of the earlier models and or it has not been looked after in the best way. I believe you get what you pay for.

                Cheers,

                Chris

                Comment


                • #11
                  If you're into the Linea mini, Rick (Coffeemachinist) has a how to on his EMP upgrade for it in his insta story now. Makes me want one.

                  Comment


                  • mthomas87
                    mthomas87 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Haha watching the insta story makes me want one but not want to do it myself :P

                • #12
                  Originally posted by yochiya View Post
                  I would say my priorities are espresso quality, consistency and reproducibility, machine engineering and build (quality, noise, looks, maintenance). I've dabbled in flow control but im not entirely a convert, i.e. I've used flow profiling perhaps 20 times max over the last year and find it hard to see myself profile every shot manually.
                  Keen on hearing some thoughts.
                  To me this seems a simple equation with an easy answer - a lever machine (e.g. Alex Leva). Fulfills your brief entirely and then some (minimal maintenance, essentially noiseless, cheaper than LMs/R91 etc).

                  Comment


                  • amberale
                    amberale commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I’d be looking at the Izzo Valexia in the EOFY sale list.
                    All the Alex goodness with a 100% Stainless build.

                • #13
                  Originally posted by YouSnooze View Post

                  To me this seems a simple equation with an easy answer - a lever machine (e.g. Alex Leva). Fulfills your brief entirely and then some (minimal maintenance, essentially noiseless, cheaper than LMs/R91 etc).
                  Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Im actually quite attracted to the idea. I've been doing some experimentation with my Cafelat Robot and i've gotten some seriously amazing shots out of it. Im sure they can't compare but its the closest thing I have as a reference.

                  I always wonder how easy it is to be super consistent with a lever machine though. In the back of my mind i'm thinking the manual pull action will differ to some extent with each pull. What has your experience been? Also, out of interest, does the Alex Leva allow monitoring pressure at the group during pulls?

                  EDIT: Just watched a vid, makes sense. The mechanism is spring driven so super consistent i'd imagine.

                  Comment


                  • WhatEverBeansNecessary
                    WhatEverBeansNecessary commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Disclaimer - I love my spring lever machine.

                    Can't comment on the Alex specifically (I have the Profitec Pro 800) and it certainly is possible to get consistent shots. The only difference pull to pull is the preinfusion time. There is also a PID for control of boiler temp/pressure but I don't tend to play with that much.

                    My routine is like this:
                    Pull lever, hit 'on' for my scales to zero the cup, put cup under portafilter, lower lever.
                    It's about 5 seconds to do all that. And it makes it pretty consistent but I find the retention in my grinder makes a larger difference than an extra half second or so preinfusion.

                    Also I don't think the Alex has an inbuilt pressure monitoring at the group head (could be wrong here) but yes the spring is pretty consistent.

                • #14
                  Just today i have picked up a brand new GS3 AV from Coffee Parts here in Sydney. It is replacing my Linea Mini. So I have only spent the last 3 hours on the AV but I figured I might chip in.

                  My Linea Mini was modified by Mr Bond. This is relevant because the mod he does gives you the ability to use paddle to "pre-infuse" at a lower pressure prior to giving it the full beans. Before the mod the analog paddle talks a talk it cannot walk - for in truth, it is binary 0 or 9 bar).

                  I have had the machine for ages. In that time it has been serviced but it is not impossible it would benefit from a service. relevant context since i am going to compare its performance with the new GS3.

                  Anyway the GS3 seems to be straining at the leash compared to the Linea. I thought I would be able to pre-infuse on GS3. In truth it seems quite poor for this. Pump on. Pump off. Puck smashed and unhinged from its moorings. I have poured some shockers today. But once I got it "dialed" in, it is very impressive. One has to really make sure that the grinding, distribution and tamping is done perfect. The AV is not here for your pre-infusion party*. It fair nails the puck it really does. i used a much finer grind for same weight with GS3 versus Linea. I presume this doesn't make sense unless the Linea is running a lower pressure and hence my comment above about a service.

                  Mind you I have been using Woolworths Lavazza Crema Gusto much to my shame. I think it is a tad stale and finding that sweet spot is a fraught enterprise even with a decent grinder (EK43). If I had my Behmor I'd cook up some fresh stuff and I am sure I could do much better and with more room for error.

                  But when it is right you push the button and you get what you are after and it is a flavour extractor! A substantially better coffee (eventually) than via the Linea I thought. Milk frothed with finer bubbles and noticeably silkier milk. Coffee better extracted. Wonderful. It looked quite different even in the cup. And of course once you are setup it gets real easy.

                  Re: broader issue of profiling - I was very attracted to this idea and hence the LM mod. Prior to that I had Cremina so I could get the right profile. i followed the development of the Decent and whilst being appalled by its disgusting Theranos-like aesthetics I was also fascinated by the profiles! I was obsessed.

                  But what I see now thru my wiser eyes is that to enjoy coffee I need to be as bean centric as i can be. So finer points of technique for me are a diversion from the fundamental and perhaps personally more interesting thing: coffee beans that are really wonderfully roasted and make amazing coffee. if i had the beans nailed down the profiling might be a nice add on. but i am not there yet and so i have simplified and tried to refocus. now i have a grinder which is single dosing so i can try different beans in small quantities (kony-e not great for that) and i have a one button press machine that gives me specific volume of espresso. i feel i am removing variables and that is a way to better coffee.

                  I find i need to really gee myself up every 6 months with coffee otherwise i can really start making some terrible stuff! need to keep visiting a cafe and seeing what is actually possible. need to keep trying beans and thinking about that perfect cup.


                  Comment


                  • JohnA
                    JohnA commented
                    Editing a comment
                    the AV is not for pressure profiling, forget it. I have never bothered with it, and never will, and everything you read about it will tell you the same.
                    But to me everything else about it is perfect. Program in your volumetric buttons, and you dont have to ever worry about using scales under it. Also, once you have dialled in your grind perfectly, the timer on the volumetric will let you know if your grind needs adjusting. I love mine and have no desire to ever change.
                    I am not one for playing around, so love the simplicity and consistency of the AV. Partner it with a great grinder and you are in coffee heaven

                  • EspressoAdventurer
                    EspressoAdventurer commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Agree with John A above. Congrats on a great setup!
                    But Mr Gray......W/W beans ??
                    Whatever are you thinking?
                    Deserves Andy's or your own from the Behmore....

                  • Lukemc
                    Lukemc commented
                    Editing a comment
                    mrgray - normally ricks mod includes adding a 6mm restrictor which slows water flow compared to the 8 that LM fit standard, this may make them more forgiving (compared to the GS3) as you "smash" the puck with less water flow initially, I also think he does some other stuff to the water chamber to aid in slower ramp-up to pressure (could be wrong)

                • #15
                  WW beans is unforgivable - i am working on rectifying this situation (have ordered from Andy). behmor is no more after it errored itself out of existence one day.

                  i did want to note i have had the 6 mm gliceur mod thing done (remote installed by Mr Bond using my hands). it did make a difference to consistency. it let me get away with a kony-e and almost no attention to detail. good stuff.

                  also i realise now the Linea is so good (presumably aided by mods) that i was down to 14g basket with it no sweat making average coffee but beautiful pucks!

                  14g basket with slightly stale coffee with GS3 is a challenge. even with a decent grinder. in truth unless the coffee is pulverised to dust, very different to control that beastly pressure when pump comes on.

                  i was talking about my brief time with a cremina last night and remembered how forgiving its deeper baskets were.

                  so today i applied that to GS3 and 21g basket is much more forgiving and produced some truly wonderful stuff this morning.

                  have had to change out 4 hole steam wand. it just vaporises instantaneously the kind of milk volume i need for a 150 ml cup flat white. using single hole today (wink) and got a lovely result.

                  Comment


                  • Moffee
                    Moffee commented
                    Editing a comment
                    What steam tip are you using with a single hole?
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