Interested on feedback on the R24. I’ve never owned a lever but am intrigued after 3 Decent owners i know of are jumping on the lever bandwagon. How do lever owners deal with such large brew boilers and keeping water fresh ? Do you drain the boilers regularly and put fresh water in? The heating times are crazy. I don’t know how you’d deal with it, like when an unexpected guest comes over? Or forgetting to set the timer.
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Londinium R24 or Vesuvius Lever?
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Speaking from experience after owning an LR24 for 6 months now.
I definitely don’t regret it and haven’t looked at another machine with envious eyes since (including beastly machines like modified LMLM, decent, slayer, synesso etc). I used to have many machines (including dual boilers such as lelit bianca etc) but kept upgrading to scratch that itch after owning them for a few months.
The warm-up times are sure, 1 hour, but you can program in its control module to wake up an hour before you start your day. Then the idea is that you leave it on until you have your last coffee in the afternoon, then it will switch off with its programming. For example, I leave for work at 7am, wake up at 6. I have my machine wake up at 5:15am, so that I will make espresso around 6:30am. Additionally, the machine is on during the day so other people in my family can use it whilst I'm at work, come home at 5:30pm, to have another coffee. The machine switches itself off at 8pm, in case a guest does come over between 6-8pm which does happen often enough on my end hence why I leave it on for another 2 hours.
In terms of dual boiler etc, the LR24 although technically is a heat exchange, it provides its water via a thermosiphon into the group head. It also does NOT have a thermostat to either the group head and the boiler, hence is unable to change the temperature independently. The only variable you change is the Pre-Infusion pressure (PI), which then as a result changes 3 things.
1. the amount of water delivered to the group head on each pull
2. the temperature of the water delivered into the group head
3. and of course, the pre-infusion pressure applied
I don't miss having a temperature that I can punch into my group head/boiler as I did on my dual boiler, and I think that on a heat exchange machine it's useless as I feel the equilibrium of temperature is more important. Plenty of other physics plays into this, but this can be quite a polarising topic on forums, so I won't into more detail.
Additionally, Reiss (londinium boss, founder etc etc) has done experiments doing like (15 or 30 - cant remember) back-to-back shots without any diminishing in taste. If anything, he said the coffee got better due to the grinder getting warmer. Most I've done back-to-back is 5 for a small gathering, and I was fine with that.
In terms of water, lever machines chew through water quite quickly due to the nature of levers and the lack of a solenoid valve for backflushing. I've yet to ever consider emptying my boiler and replacing it with 'fresh water'. I put in great water already through a brita c150, and drink coffee quite regularly. I find myself needing to add 1-2L of water every 2-4 days.
All in all, very very happy with my machine. It is super quiet, and makes f-king great tasting coffee. Because the machine is so reliable with less variables for me to butcher up and play with, hence it lets me focus more on things that make coffee taste better like the process of dialing in a coffee and home roasting! Feel free to ask more questions whether on forum/PM, happy to answer them on the LR24.
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Don't have the londinium but the profitec pro 800 and do very much the same thing (except with a wifi timer plug instead).
I probably add 1L every 3 days which I put through a water softening bench top filter (darn hard Adelaide water).
I also wouldn't dream of any other machine.
The only thing I do on occasion is take out the water tank (the one that holds the cold water I top up) every now and again and empty/wipe out then give a good rinse. The 800 also has a little push valve so you can take out the plastic tank without having to empty it completely which is super convenient. One day I would like to plumb in with an RO and the drip tray etc but it's not issue if you are in the habit of filling up a couple times a week.
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like the OP I have been looking at the R24, Vesuvius and the Profitec 800.
Good to see a 'local' (i.e. Australia) user with experience using the Londinium.
Do you worry about it being exclusively sold/supported by Londinium/Reiss the one man show? Same for getting any spare parts etc, I assume it is 'only' through the Londinium site (i.e. overseas shipping costs as well).
Any issues with the built in software/programming? If that fails does the machine become a brick.....
That is probably the main issue that is playing in my mind, otherwise for me personally it's a no brainer to get the R24 over the others as the aesthetics are more appealing to me....
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That Evo apppears to be one hell of a machine.
There have been some jaws drop at the video of its piston assembly.
If you like to fiddle with your machine and don’t mind the noise of the pump then it looks like the bees knees.
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https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/606...comment-854807Originally posted by PhatBoy View PostInterested on feedback on the R24. I’ve never owned a lever but am intrigued after 3 Decent owners i know of are jumping on the lever bandwagon. How do lever owners deal with such large brew boilers and keeping water fresh ? Do you drain the boilers regularly and put fresh water in? The heating times are crazy. I don’t know how you’d deal with it, like when an unexpected guest comes over? Or forgetting to set the timer.
in the link is a list of features for you to compare with other machines. In a way comparisons can be a bit unfair because the ACS Leva group itself cost almost double that of most other machines. You are also comparing and up-to-date twin boiler 3 PID cartridge heated group machine with older tech.
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Thanks for the info Dave. Had no idea there could be that much of difference between levers. Whats the rough price of one in the U.K?Originally posted by davec View Post
https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/606...comment-854807
in the link is a list of features for you to compare with other machines. In a way comparisons can be a bit unfair because the ACS Leva group itself cost almost double that of most other machines. You are also comparing and up-to-date twin boiler 3 PID cartridge heated group machine with older tech.
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I can’t find pricing anywhereOriginally posted by davec View Posthttps://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/606...comment-854807 in the link is a list of features for you to compare with other machines. In a way comparisons can be a bit unfair because the ACS Leva group itself cost almost double that of most other machines. You are also comparing and up-to-date twin boiler 3 PID cartridge heated group machine with older tech.
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I believe it now goes for over $4K USD, although some of the initial units sold for $3300.
There's no website with this info. Most of the info/videos are from davec and some threads on the UK forums.
I like the modern group head (15 min heat up time) and the Leva group but Davec's latest video with a near production model still has the off/on again whiny pump noise and a less than rock solid chassis when pulling.
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Just contact the factory for a price, it will depend on shipping costs, which can be expensive to Aus. Ultimately the price is whatever the factory quote you shipped to Aus, not whatOriginally posted by PhatBoy View PostI can’t find pricing anywhere
bernardd believes to be true. Quite a few videos on CFUK and owners with their Evo, all delighted with it. As someone said, the video of the Piston assembly and maintenance routines shows the sheer quality of the group and why it costs twice as much as the other group in common use.
I only have an Alpha proof of concept made entirely from scrap parts, including a damaged case...The production machine is so nice, I wish I had one...
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Davec congratulations on the Lever, I read on CFUK how this machine was your idea. Also how you did most of the development work for the factory on a machine made from scrap parts. Well done. Your comment reads as if the factory will ship direct and cut the Australian distributor out. Is that what you are saying?
Ps understand your defensiveness above, there seems like a lot of discussion about your baby on the Talk Coffee Forums...
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I think a lot of what people find desirable in a lever machine and why they love them determines their various perspectives on different machines.
Some people see levers as being a link to the past, and don't want some of the modern control systems etc. on them, as that compromises the 'purity' of the heritage. Others like that they are silent, and don't regard any lever machine with a pump as a real lever machine. Others just like the simplicity of the older style levers, and see the down-side of modern control systems as adding little except complexity to something that already works really well.
All of these different perspectives are valid, just different.
However, any potential buyer of a lever needs to decide how they regard these issues, and what they personally find appealing about a lever machine. There is no point debating the merit of different machines when the perspective people have on what makes a great lever machine is fundamentally different - that isn't a debate on the merits of one machine vs. another, but a defense of a different perspective.
My perspective - I love using a lever machine, and I think they produce great espresso. But whilst I love the manual involvement a lever brings, I'm not really nostalgic about them, and think that they can be improved on the historical simple, elegant lever, in particular in terms of convenience, temperature stability and control. I currently have a Strega, with PID control of the heated group, and PID controlled boiler, which perhaps could be considered a part way towards what the Vesuvius Evo Leva offers.
I think the Vesuvius Evo Leva, with its combination of old school manual involvement and brewing with probably the best-regarded lever group (LSM), combined with the convenience, stability and flexibility of fast warm up, rock solid PID control over the group, brew and service boiler temperatures, and the ability to readily vary brew parameters to suit your needs, is a real winner.
I'll get to find out when my Leva arrives.......
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I don't know, I just know that no retailers have stock. I don't know whether Australia will have a dealership or not, but it makes sense for Aus and USA, as air shipping single units is expensive and riskier than shipping a larger quantity of machines on a pallet, because they can't be kicked off a conveyor or dropped like a single machine can. In Europe, I cannot see why ACS would want dealerships? I think the price being mentioned was something a European dealer put up on their website.Originally posted by 338 View Post
Davec congratulations on the Lever, I read on CFUK how this machine was your idea. Also how you did most of the development work for the factory on a machine made from scrap parts. Well done. Your comment reads as if the factory will ship direct and cut the Australian distributor out. Is that what you are saying?
Ps understand your defensiveness above, there seems like a lot of discussion about your baby on the Talk Coffee Forums...
I do know that materials cost to build it have increased due to Covid, and it's effect on worldwide supply....fortunately the main board used is a mult-igroup commercial board that has been in production a long time and proven bulletproof, so at least that's not going to be problematic to get hold of. Good job there was not an attempt to cost save with a simpler modern board, as supply may have been tricky and quality could have suffered.
It's not defensiveness, it's really just sticking to facts...no one knows what it will cost in Aus when/if they get an in country Retailer, because that retailer not only has to hold stock but will be responsible for the warranty, and have other costs rather than the 2-year parts only warranty when purchasing direct..
I came up with the idea to quickly make a home version a reality, because making a small Vostock stalled due to difficulties of making new smaller boilers, on board water, mains or plumbed, having a pump within the machine....all these things the commercial Vostok doesn't have. That was more than a couple of years ago. I didn't like the way the modern lever market was in October 2020, and a few events took place (one person deserves special thanks) which made me determined to help ACS to have one of the best levers I could on the market. It seemed to me, using existing parts that were known good and a few small modifications to the V case, would allow for a machine to rapidly come to market, containing all the features required for Prosumer use. The test bed/proof of concept, was made from scrap parts and a damaged case...but it served its purpose and more importantly, it worked really well!
There is that fairly negative discussion on the forum you mentioned and if I am honest a few fake accounts came on CFUK and tried to start the same negative discussion before it had even been built. It's great though because every negative comment by a "non owner" and every attack by owners of another lever, reassures me that we got the machine right. I did the development for fun (I have not been paid), I like to be a part of new things coming to market and because I had been irritated a little...I hope the factory do well with it though, they are a small manufacturer, not a very large one and they actually make the machines they sell. The livelihood of their employees is materially affected by the machines they make.
Elephantoplasty puts it very well The group used in the Evo is an excellent group, the factory has used both types of group (the other is the 58mm Firoenzato), but the sheer quality of the Evo group can't be beat. It costs the factory twice as much to buy and customise, but the benefits are completely worth it.I think the Vesuvius Evo Leva, with its combination of old school manual involvement and brewing with probably the best-regarded lever group (LSM), combined with the convenience, stability and flexibility of fast warm up, rock solid PID control over the group, brew and service boiler temperatures, and the ability to readily vary brew parameters to suit your needs, is a real winner.
The Evo will sell to the people who understand what it's really doing, the advantages, and understand why levers can be much better than they were. To not be able to see why a 3 PID controlled, twin boiler system and independently heated group, on a lever isn't beneficial....to me boggles the mind
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