tompoland - hope I am not shoehorning too much here, but have some experience and also a cheeky plug at the end
I have used a Scace 2 (with E61 style portafilter handle) on maybe 5-10 E61 machines.
More from a hobbyist coffee technician point of view, here are a couple of my thoughts.
Things I like about it;
1. Very nice pressure gauge - handy for machines that don't have a group pressure dial, I used it to mainly move older E61 machines where the OPV pressure was default 12/12.5 down to 8/9 bar
2. High build quality
3. Temperature measurement - I mostly used it to tune the boiler pressure on HX machines to a good compromise of decent steam pressure with a good group head / group water to reduce the need for flushes or eliminate flash boiling at the group. Again mostly on older E61 machines which often run hot, sometimes this was not possible to fully resolve without changing gicleur size in the thermosyphon loop (which mostly I didn't do). It does require a multimeter with a Thermoprobe input (I just use a cheap $20 unit that just displays the temp).
Cons;
1. Bit messy - it really pumps a strong jet of very thin water as it has a small opening to restrict flow/simulate puck pressure and this tends to spray water around a bit as it his anything beneath it drip tray, drip tray cover or cup, not really a big con, but worth noting
2. Non E61 machines - When you hit a machine where the handle doesn't fit you are a bit stuck so I grabbed a pressure gauge for other style machines which just screws on the bottom where the Portafilter spouts go, mostly you can still wedge the Scace 2 in enough to do temp readings. I can understand why it isn't removable as it is quite nicely integrated and is an appliance for technicians to use on hundreds or thousands of machines.
Finishing off (cheeky plug), if you are thinking of buying a Scace drop me a PM as I will more than likely be putting mine up for sale over the next few months as I just don't use it enough.
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It's a shame you didn't ask me sooner - I see you're at Noosa - you could've borrowed it. It's now passed hands, twice (I think), so you'll be able to get wider feedback.Originally posted by tompoland View PostSeaperson would be interested in your conclusions regarding buying a scace or similar device. Was it worthwhile for you? I understand that your particular machine presented some challenges but still interested in your overall assessment as to the merits.
I had imagined that it would be a relatively simple device to fit and get readings from but it sounds like it presented a lot of challenges.
Here's my experience:
1. I've never used a Scace, but it's a fraction of the price and ostensibly does the same job. So that's a big plus.
2. My initial aim was to see if the machine was operating at the right parameters. I succeeded in more or less verifying that.
3. I thought it would be more plug and play, and didn't expect the device itself to introduce temperature measurement issues due to it acting as a heatsink, and the large amount of water accumulating in the portafilter.
4. Once I established a ritual that involved preheating the portafilter and emptying the water, I got a picture of how the temperature it measured related to the temperature measured by the thermometer in my grouphead (which is crucial, in comparison).
5. I found the temperature differential to be about 2 degrees C.
6. So now I can use the group thermometer alone as a variable. It doesn't matter what the real temperature in the basket is, I can use what's displayed on the group thermometer, whether it says 93 or 97.
7. End result is I don't think my ongoing taste issues are related to temperature in the puck. I'm now investigating what's physically happening within the grounds. I would not have got to this point with any confidence had I not been able to get a picture of my temperature and brew pressure.
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Seaperson would be interested in your conclusions regarding buying a scace or similar device. Was it worthwhile for you? I understand that your particular machine presented some challenges but still interested in your overall assessment as to the merits.
I had imagined that it would be a relatively simple device to fit and get readings from but it sounds like it presented a lot of challenges.
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Device has been sold.Originally posted by Seaperson View PostReceived my Pesado T.P.D (Temperature and Pressure Device) today, and have given it a solid initial workout. It came with an e61 portafilter handle. Compatible with my Rocket Giotto and so forth.
Anyway, I should be finished with it sometime next week, I think. If anyone's interested in buying it from me, send me a direct message. If you, like me, only want to run some tests and then move it on, then maybe you should buy it first and sell it on to someone who might want to keep it. It will be in mint condition and boxed as I received it, so I reckon I'll discount it by about 20%. If that sounds reasonable.
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Stripped it back, descaled the boiler and inspected the pstat today. Wound it all the way out, blew some dead insects out it, and screwed it all the way back in to the limit. Unfortunately that's all the travel it has. Boiler reads similar to yours, but I've had the gauge apart in the past, so it could be out by half a bar or so.Originally posted by EspressoAdventurer View PostSirai - Try a set of fine point, Pointy Nose Pliers.*
Mine currently set at 1.23. Just say it 'floats' a tad past the - OEM which is 1.2 - as it clicks off.
Your Water flow is about right.maybe a touch higher than expected. 6-8ml per second = potentially 480ml / minute.
Has it been feed 'the right' - 'filtered' what thru out its life?
Maybe check the mushroom condition. Assess.
Maybe check the boiler to PStat line / at the Pstat for scale build up.
# Maybe others with day to day Tech experience can chime in as to any theories why your Sirai is wound down so far^.
^Care here as the Only comparison Im making is that-very ltd cross reference to mine.In effect no real comparison as such.
Carry on in the direction your going......
As said here often ( you seem to know what your doing) Take care here as with anything connected at 240V.
There is some light scale buildup on a couple of pipes coming from the base of the boiler, but I couldn't see any leaks, steam or water.
Mushroom, etc is all clean. I only run filtered water and keep the brew side descaled.
I dropped the water level probe a touch.
None of this had any effect.
Unless there's some other explanation why I can't raise the boiler pressure, I think I have no other option but to replace the Pstat.
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Sirai - Try a set of fine point, Pointy Nose Pliers.*
Mine currently set at 1.23. Just say it 'floats' a tad past the - OEM which is 1.2 - as it clicks off.
Your Water flow is about right.maybe a touch higher than expected. 6-8ml per second = potentially 480ml / minute.
Has it been feed 'the right' - 'filtered' what thru out its life?
Maybe check the mushroom condition. Assess.
Maybe check the boiler to PStat line / at the Pstat for scale build up.
# Maybe others with day to day Tech experience can chime in as to any theories why your Sirai is wound down so far^.
^Care here as the Only comparison Im making is that-very ltd cross reference to mine.In effect no real comparison as such.
Carry on in the direction your going......
As said here often ( you seem to know what your doing) Take care here as with anything connected at 240V.
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Ah yes, but unfortunately - as per the pic - I am unable to adjust my Sirai down (higher pressure) any further due to the screw poking up through the adjustment nut. I have no idea what's going on there.Originally posted by EspressoAdventurer View PostRecord and note exactly where your Sirai is currently set at. Notate any changes.
As said prev TBoMK the Sirai is considered very sensitive.
Around 1/4deg per full turn.
Make your own observations.
Have you considered changing the Gicleur (Jet) ?
OEM dimension is 0.8mm.
Gicleur - no. Is that something you'd recommend with this machine? I presume if I go down to say .6mm, that would drop the flow rate allowing me to grind coarser. Is that right?
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Record and note exactly where your Sirai is currently set at. Notate any changes.
As said prev TBoMK the Sirai is considered very sensitive.
Around 1/4deg per full turn.
Make your own observations.
Have you considered changing the Gicleur (Jet) ?
OEM dimension is 0.8mm.
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It's a little bit spitty when left idle for a long period, but the bubbles stop after a few seconds. Grouphead thermometer readings are around 100c.
I'm starting to build a temperature profile with the device that suggests my flushing routine is too long and I'm letting the group cool too much. I'd been basing my temp surfing around the premise that the thermocouple in the grouphead approximates the puck temperature around 15-20 seconds into the shot. That's not what the device is telling me.
There appears to be a differential of around 3c between the group thermometer and the TPD reading, some of which might be related to the device acting as a heat sink. It's complicated, and will require further investigation using my tastebuds as the next gauge.
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I have a PPV1 and whilst YMMV - your Sirai 's setting is what it is.
Whats the behaviour of the water exiting the GH after sitting, idling for some time (after warmup) etc.
Same same after shots pulled ?
Hisses / spits? or flows out like a showerhead pattern (yeah doh! I know) meaning is it a reasonable wide circular pattern?
RE Temp sensor. No that looks fine and Id be happy with that.
I was thinking it was down in the manifold well down form the GH.
Ok carry on .....
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Machine is a Rocket Giotto Premium Plus. I hadn't realized the screw was wound down so tight until I took off the cap. I've adjusted it plenty in the past. Pressurestat is cycling normally. No leaking or hissing from anywhere I can see.
The temp probe pokes up into the portafilter and is affected by the water surrounding it, not just the tip. Again, I don't know whether this is good or bad, but it's what happens in the real world. The temperature of the water in the puck is affected by the water already in the puck.
Last edited by Seaperson; 22 April 2022, 02:02 PM.
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S/Person I cant recall from previous posts and looked, but couldnt find .......
Is this an early ECM. <2005? Or later Rocket >2006 Giotto Premium Plus?
Ive not ever seen a Sirai fully wound down like that as such.
What I recall is that it takes circa 1 turn on the adj screw to effect 1/4deg temp change.
Also where exactly is the temp probe taking its reading from?
In the Handle 'bowl' or down on the screw on manifold ?
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Hmm, unfortunately with measuring temperatures it can raise as many questions as it answers. It appears to have confirmed I'm running a bit cold. Something I've always suspected but it's hard to tell from the group head thermometer. So I tried to raise my boiler pressure but found the screw on my Sirai pressurestat is wound all the way down and I can't budge it. Not sure whether this is a symptom of something else. As per attached.
Any ideas?
Also, has anyone put together a Scace workflow? As in, the steps involved in taking a reading, and then what to do with the results?
There's a bit more to it than sticking in the portafilter and turning the lever. The residual water in the portafilter can confound attempts to get an instant read, and opening the valve to drain the unit is in effect a flush. I can't see any way around this and am in two minds whether this is a good thing as the puck will also retain grounds and cause a temperature differential between the top and bottom.
I'm feeling like a newb all over again.
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