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  • 20A GPO at home

    So I have this older Bezzera 2 Group commercial machine. It needs a 20A socket.

    No doubt others have commercial machines setup at home, many with higher power requirements than the standard 10A outlet.

    Apart from the obvious step of getting a 20A outlet installed ... are there any other solutions people have used?

    In a perfect world this machine wont be long term ... so I dont really want to get the 20A outlet.

    I have a 15A to 10A adaptor for my MIG welder but there doesnt seem to be an equivalent for 20A.

    I've tested this machine on a 20A outlet at work and all is well.

    It trips my 15A adaptor so is obviously drawing more than 15A.

    Cheers

    Nick

  • #2
    Just get the 20A GPO installed lest you accidentally kill yourself or burn your house down.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by nsharpley View Post

      I have a 15A to 10A adaptor for my MIG welder but there doesnt seem to be an equivalent for 20A.
      If that is a 15 A receptacle to 10 A plug, thus allowing a 15 A device to be plugged in to a 10 A outlet, it is

      A: illegal

      B: dangerous (hence A)

      C: something that will void your insurance in the case of a fire.


      Do the smart thing and throw it in the bin.

      Comment


      • #4
        The element is the component which sucks the power, either put a lower power element in and wait longer to warm up or install the 20A socket. Or just use it at work.

        Comment


        • Stavros
          Stavros commented
          Editing a comment
          A friend of mine had a similar issue with a 2 group machine which pulled too many amps for a normal power outlet. The element in his machine consisted of two heating coils, which were connected in parallel. To get around the issue, he disconnected one of the elements, which roughly halved the machine's current draw. (Actually, he put in an additional switch which allowed him to run one or two elements, depending on where the machine was located, and what outlets were available.) Note: He is an electronics techo' so he was able to do this fairly safely.

      • #5
        Do you know if your machine is HX or dual boiler? If HX and it has two elements you could disconnect one. Again plenty of care if you haven't worked with 230V

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by Lyrebird View Post

          If that is a 15 A receptacle to 10 A plug, thus allowing a 15 A device to be plugged in to a 10 A outlet, it is

          A: illegal

          B: dangerous (hence A)

          C: something that will void your insurance in the case of a fire.


          Do the smart thing and throw it in the bin.
          Given this statement

          Originally posted by nsharpley View Post
          It trips my 15A adaptor so is obviously drawing more than 15A.
          I'd say it's none of the above. Adaptors that allow larger plugs to be plugged into smaller outlets with a circuit breaker in between limiting the current to the smaller plug have been readily commercially available for several years.

          Comment


          • Lyrebird
            Lyrebird commented
            Editing a comment
            The legal (and safe) adapters trip at 10 A, not 15 A as quoted.

            If it is one of these and he's simply mistaken the trip current, all good.

        • #7
          Do you have model details. A number of 2 groups are specced 20A sockets and only pull 15A.

          Similarly its relatively easy to pull an element to convert it back to 10.

          ** WARNING BELOW IS ILLEGAL, Likely voids your insurance and is not recommend. Probably fine for a test or temp option tho****

          Most modern 10A sockets on a 40A circuit can like 16A or w.e it it pulls so you can just cut the plug and rewire... Please make sure you have little to nothing else on the circuit and do NOT leave it on unattended (fire risk!) tho.

          (For the safety fans this is equivalent to running a (2400W) kettle and a 10amp machine off the same powerboad something I'd bet a number of snobs do already).

          Comment


          • noidle22
            noidle22 commented
            Editing a comment
            Your Decent has a rapid initial heatup then pulses the thermocoils to maintain temperature, a kettle runs continually at say 2.2-2.4kW for maybe 2 minutes.
            A 15A commercial coffee machine draws 3-3.6kW for 15-20 minutes from cold then cycles at full power every 2 or so minutes for 20-30 seconds.
            The loading on the circuit is completely different in these two cases, one being far more dangerous than the other.

          • FNQ
            FNQ commented
            Editing a comment
            I am adding agreement to Dimal's comment or noidle' s suggestion.( Below ). Plestor's example would work if you only powered one of the machines at a time, but I would think 2400 watts plus 1600 watts would / should trigger my circuit breaker.

          • Plestor
            Plestor commented
            Editing a comment
            1.) I agree a decent is a bad example. Use an uninsulated (old) HX instead, hell 2 of them.

            I'm happy to provide calculations against the Australian wiring standards if anyone really cares in practice what it comes down to is I believe 3600W @ 20 mins is within the safety margin for household wiring _if and only if_ you meet the following

            A) Minimal other devices on the circuit
            B) Modern wiring
            C) Its actively supervised.

            YMMV.

        • #8
          Best course of action is to check if the element in the machine has 6 terminals. If it does, this means there's three separate lower powered elements working together.

          You can remove one of these to run the machine on a 15A circuit or two of them to run it on a 10A circuit. It's going to be painfully slow with only one element connected but if all you want to do is test the machine for a while in a domestic scenario, it will work.

          If the element has only two or four terminals, you're out of luck without installing a new circuit. I would advise against any other workarounds.

          Comment


          • #9
            Originally posted by Plestor View Post

            (For the safety fans this is equivalent to running a (2400W) kettle and a 10amp machine off the same powerboad something I'd bet a number of snobs do already).
            I'll admit to being a safety fan. I quite like being alive.


            BTW your example is just plain wrong. Two 10 A draws off the same power board at the same time will trip the powerboard. If you use an unsafe powerboard that doesn't have overload protection, it will trip your circuit breaker if your wiring conforms to standard since each GPO circuit has a 16A breaker. If your wiring doesn't conform to standard I give up.

            If the draws are not at the same time they are not equivalent to the OPs load.



            FWIW I'm not afraid of electrics: I designed and built my audio equipment, the main amp uses a 1200 Volt DC power supply and if you've ever worked with high voltage DC supplies you'll know they are bloody dangerous things. I just wouldn't recommend futzing with it to anyone without a good level of expertise and if they have that expertise, why would they be reading advice on the interwebs?

            Comment


            • level3ninja
              level3ninja commented
              Editing a comment
              I'm not aware of any standard stating a GPO needs to be on a circuit with a 16A breaker. The breaker is sized to the wiring behind the GPO. You could run a GPO off a 100A breaker if you could fit the cables in the back (which you can't).

            • Lyrebird
              Lyrebird commented
              Editing a comment
              You are right, there is no such requirement in the standard, I thought there was in the old standard but now I'm not sure.

          • #10
            Originally posted by Lyrebird View Post

            I'll admit to being a safety fan. I quite like being alive.
            Click image for larger version

Name:	Electricity Kills.png
Views:	291
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            Nasty electricity - you can't trust what you can't see.

            Comment


            • #11
              Originally posted by noidle22 View Post
              Best course of action is to check if the element in the machine has 6 terminals. If it does, this means there's three separate lower powered elements working together.

              You can remove one of these to run the machine on a 15A circuit or two of them to run it on a 10A circuit. It's going to be painfully slow with only one element connected but if all you want to do is test the machine for a while in a domestic scenario, it will work.

              If the element has only two or four terminals, you're out of luck without installing a new circuit. I would advise against any other workarounds.
              Hey, I've got a related question - just pulled the old Faema Due apart after it tripped the house breaker, and the element is buggered - terminals all corroded and burnt looking - nasty. It's a 6 terminal i.e. 3 elements, running on single phase, and I'd like to drop the wattage a bit. So, two questions:
              Can I replace the 6 terminal element with a 4 terminal element which fits?
              The 2 leftover wires... bridge them or terminate them? And does it matter which wires, or can i disconnect any pair?

              Comment


              • #12
                Question one - well possibly, provided the four terminal element has a smaller wattage rating than the six terminal element. This is something you could check by ringing one of the coffee parts suppliers, and seeing what they think, and what they have in stock.

                With regard to your second question, I've just had a look at a wiring diagram of the Faema Due at Faema Due Smart Service Manual - CoffeeSnobs. I'm glad I did, because I had made a stupid and dangerous assumption that the three element would be wired in parallels, and would be simple to modify. It appears that there are there separate pairs of wiring provided for the three elements, (well, at least on this version). This pretty much sums up the risks when fiddling with mains power stuff, or providing advice on it to others. It is not always what it looks like, and unless you have the relevant qualification and/or experience, it could be damaging to the equipment, and lethal to the user.

                I don't want to sound negative about people working on mains power, (I've did it and managed not to kill myself or let the magic smoke out), but can I recommend that you seek professional assistance if you decide to modify the wiring of the machine.

                Cheers, Stavros.
                Last edited by Stavros; 17 August 2022, 11:27 AM.

                Comment


                • Stavros
                  Stavros commented
                  Editing a comment
                  PS. Perhaps someone with electric/electronic qualifications could write a 'sticky' or a standard disclaimer regarding the risks of mains power in a coffee machine?

              • #13
                Originally posted by Stavros View Post
                Question one - well possibly, provided the four terminal element has a smaller wattage rating than the six terminal element. This is something you could check by ringing one of the coffee parts suppliers, and seeing what they think, and what they have in stock.

                With regard to your second question, I've just had a look at a wiring diagram of the Faema Due at Faema Due Smart Service Manual - CoffeeSnobs. I'm glad I did, because I had made a stupid and dangerous assumption that the three element would be wired in parallels, and would be simple to modify. It appears that there are there separate pairs of wiring provided for the three elements, (well, at least on this version). This pretty much sums up the risks when fiddling with mains power stuff, or providing advice on it to others. It is not always what it looks like, and unless you have the relevant qualification and/or experience, it could be damaging to the equipment, and lethal to the user.

                I don't want to sound negative about people working on mains power, (I've did it and managed not to kill myself or let the magic smoke out), but can I recommend that you seek professional assistance if you decide to modify the wiring of the machine.

                Cheers, Stavros.
                Thank you, much appreciated.
                Yeah I have that manual/wiring diagram, although it implies that it relates to 2+ group machines, so not 100% sure it is the same for mine. Found this also, which says 1-2 group machines, but has much less detail: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11Ya...Mvqhe6r_h/view
                I'm wondering whether it is wired like that to send one of each of the 3 phases to each element to spread the load - but then in the single phase version, the supply to all elements would be coming from one wire, so still parallel, but it's just split very early on?

                Disclaimer appreciated too: I'm aware of my lack of knowledge and not going to do anything silly, that's why I'm asking questions. I've emailed Faema and will run it past a sparky if it looks like a go, but thought someone on here might have done it before.

                Comment


                • Stavros
                  Stavros commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I agree, the wiring on some of these bigger machines can be confusing. It seems that it can change over the years between different models and versions. While googling, I jagged an earlier Faema Due element thread on coffeesnobs, where the element wiring was a bit like an electric motor, with three actives and a central or common neutral. With this stuff, I really don't think anyone would know what what they have until they have the correct diagram, and traced/checked the wiring against it.

                  (https://coffeesnobs.com.au/forum/equ...ring-faema-due)

                  Anyway, kudos to you for working on your own machine, and taking the time to research it and seek advice. I'm lucky enough to have a brother who is a sparky who lives about 5km from me. Mind you, he has been horrified with some things I proposed to do. He can be quite nit-picky about the weirdest things, even the different colour codes of three-phase fixed wiring versus three-phase flexible leads. Mhhh, what could possibly go wrong?
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