20A GPO at home

[Stavros]

I agree, the wiring on some of these bigger machines can be confusing. It seems that it can change over the years between different models and versions. While googling, I jagged an earlier Faema Due element thread on coffeesnobs, where the element wiring was a bit like an electric motor, with three actives and a central or common neutral. With this stuff, I really don't think anyone would know what what they have until they have the correct diagram, and traced/checked the wiring against it.

(https://coffeesnobs.com.au/forum/equ...ring-faema-due)

Anyway, kudos to you for working on your own machine, and taking the time to research it and seek advice. I'm lucky enough to have a brother who is a sparky who lives about 5km from me. Mind you, he has been horrified with some things I proposed to do. He can be quite nit-picky about the weirdest things, even the different colour codes of three-phase fixed wiring versus three-phase flexible leads. Mhhh, what could possibly go wrong?

[benosborne]

Question one - well possibly, provided the four terminal element has a smaller wattage rating than the six terminal element. This is something you could check by ringing one of the coffee parts suppliers, and seeing what they think, and what they have in stock.

With regard to your second question, I've just had a look at a wiring diagram of the Faema Due at Faema Due Smart Service Manual - CoffeeSnobs. I'm glad I did, because I had made a stupid and dangerous assumption that the three element would be wired in parallels, and would be simple to modify. It appears that there are there separate pairs of wiring provided for the three elements, (well, at least on this version). This pretty much sums up the risks when fiddling with mains power stuff, or providing advice on it to others. It is not always what it looks like, and unless you have the relevant qualification and/or experience, it could be damaging to the equipment, and lethal to the user.

I don't want to sound negative about people working on mains power, (I've did it and managed not to kill myself or let the magic smoke out), but can I recommend that you seek professional assistance if you decide to modify the wiring of the machine.

Cheers, Stavros.

Thank you, much appreciated.
Yeah I have that manual/wiring diagram, although it implies that it relates to 2+ group machines, so not 100% sure it is the same for mine. Found this also, which says 1-2 group machines, but has much less detail: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11Ya...Mvqhe6r_h/view
I'm wondering whether it is wired like that to send one of each of the 3 phases to each element to spread the load - but then in the single phase version, the supply to all elements would be coming from one wire, so still parallel, but it's just split very early on?

Disclaimer appreciated too: I'm aware of my lack of knowledge and not going to do anything silly, that's why I'm asking questions. I've emailed Faema and will run it past a sparky if it looks like a go, but thought someone on here might have done it before.

[Stavros]

PS. Perhaps someone with electric/electronic qualifications could write a 'sticky' or a standard disclaimer regarding the risks of mains power in a coffee machine?

[Stavros]

Question one - well possibly, provided the four terminal element has a smaller wattage rating than the six terminal element. This is something you could check by ringing one of the coffee parts suppliers, and seeing what they think, and what they have in stock.

With regard to your second question, I've just had a look at a wiring diagram of the Faema Due at Faema Due Smart Service Manual - CoffeeSnobs. I'm glad I did, because I had made a stupid and dangerous assumption that the three element would be wired in parallels, and would be simple to modify. It appears that there are there separate pairs of wiring provided for the three elements, (well, at least on this version). This pretty much sums up the risks when fiddling with mains power stuff, or providing advice on it to others. It is not always what it looks like, and unless you have the relevant qualification and/or experience, it could be damaging to the equipment, and lethal to the user.

I don't want to sound negative about people working on mains power, (I've did it and managed not to kill myself or let the magic smoke out), but can I recommend that you seek professional assistance if you decide to modify the wiring of the machine.

Cheers, Stavros.

[benosborne]

Best course of action is to check if the element in the machine has 6 terminals. If it does, this means there's three separate lower powered elements working together.

You can remove one of these to run the machine on a 15A circuit or two of them to run it on a 10A circuit. It's going to be painfully slow with only one element connected but if all you want to do is test the machine for a while in a domestic scenario, it will work.

If the element has only two or four terminals, you're out of luck without installing a new circuit. I would advise against any other workarounds.

Hey, I've got a related question - just pulled the old Faema Due apart after it tripped the house breaker, and the element is buggered - terminals all corroded and burnt looking - nasty. It's a 6 terminal i.e. 3 elements, running on single phase, and I'd like to drop the wattage a bit. So, two questions:
Can I replace the 6 terminal element with a 4 terminal element which fits?
The 2 leftover wires... bridge them or terminate them? And does it matter which wires, or can i disconnect any pair?

[Lyrebird]

You are right, there is no such requirement in the standard, I thought there was in the old standard but now I'm not sure.

[level3ninja]

I'm not aware of any standard stating a GPO needs to be on a circuit with a 16A breaker. The breaker is sized to the wiring behind the GPO. You could run a GPO off a 100A breaker if you could fit the cables in the back (which you can't).

[Stavros]

I'll admit to being a safety fan. I quite like being alive.

Nasty electricity - you can't trust what you can't see.

[Plestor]

1.) I agree a decent is a bad example. Use an uninsulated (old) HX instead, hell 2 of them.

I'm happy to provide calculations against the Australian wiring standards if anyone really cares in practice what it comes down to is I believe 3600W @ 20 mins is within the safety margin for household wiring _if and only if_ you meet the following

A) Minimal other devices on the circuit
B) Modern wiring
C) Its actively supervised.

YMMV.

[Lyrebird]

(For the safety fans this is equivalent to running a (2400W) kettle and a 10amp machine off the same powerboad something I'd bet a number of snobs do already).

I'll admit to being a safety fan. I quite like being alive.


BTW your example is just plain wrong. Two 10 A draws off the same power board at the same time will trip the powerboard. If you use an unsafe powerboard that doesn't have overload protection, it will trip your circuit breaker if your wiring conforms to standard since each GPO circuit has a 16A breaker. If your wiring doesn't conform to standard I give up.

If the draws are not at the same time they are not equivalent to the OPs load.



FWIW I'm not afraid of electrics: I designed and built my audio equipment, the main amp uses a 1200 Volt DC power supply and if you've ever worked with high voltage DC supplies you'll know they are bloody dangerous things. I just wouldn't recommend futzing with it to anyone without a good level of expertise and if they have that expertise, why would they be reading advice on the interwebs?

[FNQ]

I am adding agreement to Dimal's comment or noidle' s suggestion.( Below ). Plestor's example would work if you only powered one of the machines at a time, but I would think 2400 watts plus 1600 watts would / should trigger my circuit breaker.

[noidle22]

Your Decent has a rapid initial heatup then pulses the thermocoils to maintain temperature, a kettle runs continually at say 2.2-2.4kW for maybe 2 minutes.
A 15A commercial coffee machine draws 3-3.6kW for 15-20 minutes from cold then cycles at full power every 2 or so minutes for 20-30 seconds.
The loading on the circuit is completely different in these two cases, one being far more dangerous than the other.

[Plestor]

338 I'm comparing the following setups, of which I've described twice. I'll do it one more time for you.

Ops unit on its own socket (between 15 and 20A) and a mainly empty circuit.

vs a normal home setup with a kettle and a 10A machine from the same wall socket (NOT THE OPS).


The latter will pull at LEAST the same current.

[338]

Plestor, I would suggest you haven't read fully here. Your hint is just wrong. The OP has stated the unit trips 15A but works on 20A, that would suggest it's draw alone is over 15A, the plus 10A for the kettle. It would be hard to believe a 2 group commercial draws 10A

[Plestor]

1. I clearly note its note its not recommended

2. Please explain how its any more dangerous than my setup with a kettle and a Decent XXL from an unprotected double socket adapter.
(Hint they both draw 20A from a single wall socket)

3. Any suggestions that involve using 1 element also involve cutting the plug.