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  • Having Problems Dialling in ECM Sync

    Hi Team,

    I have been using my ECM Sync for around 6 months. Without going into too much detail, I have managed to get it dialled in with grinder beans from Woolies. The grinder setting on the MahX54 was 6, 15.5 seconds for 19g.

    However we changed over to Vittoria (again from Woolies) and we have had to drop the grinder setting to 1.5, for 19.5 seconds, to get 19g. Even then, it spirts and splashes out of the bottomless portafilter, sprays up the wall, etc, etc.

    Not sure if I am doing something wrong, but i've been tried a whole bag of beans through the grinder at different settings and i can't get close. It either comes out like a fire hose, or it doesn't run...

    What am I doing wrong!

    The machine is 6 months old, has never been cleaned and runs on tap water. I am investing in a descaler, grinder cleaner and espresso cleaner tonight. As well as a 20g VST ridgeless basket. Any tips would be appreciated!

  • #2
    The most obvious answer is supermarket beans!!! Buy fresh roasted and it will likely be much better to get dialled in. Particularly with so much hard earned invested in such good equipment.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Blues1143 View Post
      The most obvious answer is supermarket beans!!! Buy fresh roasted and it will likely be much better to get dialled in. Particularly with so much hard earned invested in such good equipment.
      I am pretty new to this, but I had assumed that quality control would be much better with the mass produced stuff no? I can find a local roaster, I think there are 1 or 2 in my town.

      Comment


      • Blues1143
        Blues1143 commented
        Editing a comment
        No worries - the magic window varies for bean and roast level but is as a vague guess is about 1 to 4 weeks post roast. Supermarket beans have no roast date generally (although some now do) so you could be drinking 6 month old coffee easily.

    • #4
      Well done on getting a new machine. That is a beauty. Don't get frustrated it does take a while to get used to a new machine. Learning however never stops and you will only keep getting better.

      I recently purchased a new machine about 6 weeks ago. Only now do I feel I have got things sorted.

      Do some testing with beans from your local roaster. They will advise you on your ratio/recipie as well.

      As Blues suggests fresh from local roaster is much better. They know when the beans were roasted, how long you can keep them for, flavour profile etc. Your machine deserves better beans. Make sure you are cleaning it regularly as well.

      Check out this six part series on espresso. It may also help.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aTFsBqhpLes&t=4s

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by Longrass View Post
        Hi Team,

        I have been using my ECM Sync for around 6 months. Without going into too much detail, I have managed to get it dialled in with grinder beans from Woolies. The grinder setting on the MahX54 was 6, 15.5 seconds for 19g.

        However we changed over to Vittoria (again from Woolies) and we have had to drop the grinder setting to 1.5, for 19.5 seconds, to get 19g. Even then, it spirts and splashes out of the bottomless portafilter, sprays up the wall, etc, etc.

        Not sure if I am doing something wrong, but i've been tried a whole bag of beans through the grinder at different settings and i can't get close. It either comes out like a fire hose, or it doesn't run...

        What am I doing wrong!

        The machine is 6 months old, has never been cleaned and runs on tap water. I am investing in a descaler, grinder cleaner and espresso cleaner tonight. As well as a 20g VST ridgeless basket. Any tips would be appreciated!
        Probably very old and very dry beans, low moisture levels. Its a great grinder and great espresso machine.

        You can't get out of a bean, what is not in it. So definitely find a roaster that stamps the roast date on the bag and start using the beans seven days post roast. Ideally finish the beans ten days after you open the bag.

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by Longrass View Post
          Hi Team,
          I have been using my ECM Sync for around 6 months. Without going into too much detail, I have managed to get it dialled in with grinder beans from Woolies. The grinder setting on the MahX54 was 6, 15.5 seconds for 19g.
          Is this a single dose / basket? 19g out is a low qty shot output.
          Originally posted by Longrass View Post
          However we changed over to Vittoria (again from Woolies) and we have had to drop the grinder setting to 1.5, for 19.5 seconds, to get 19g. Even then, it spirts and splashes out of the bottomless portafilter, sprays up the wall, etc, etc.
          Before you dump these beans -'Use' them to test / set the 'high' dose qty for all your baskets.
          Search / See 5c test here.*
          Originally posted by Longrass View Post
          Not sure if I am doing something wrong, but i've been tried a whole bag of beans through the grinder at different settings and i can't get close. It either comes out like a fire hose, or it doesn't run...
          What am I doing wrong!
          Note with quality fresh beans your grind setting will need to change dramatically.
          Notate / mark up (non permanent) your grind settings as BION settings will be confused / forgotten over time.
          Restart your shot calibration by running dual shots with a high(courser) and a low(finer) grind setting(s), appropriately spaced (your choice). If your fortunate they'll fit in with the 'too quick and too slow flow rate' and from there will easily point you in the right direction for further fine tuning' adjustments.
          * Note the post above. Consistent dose rate is very important at this stage.
          Originally posted by Longrass View Post
          The machine is 6 months old, has never been cleaned and runs on tap water. I am investing in a descaler, grinder cleaner and espresso cleaner tonight. As well as a 20g VST ridgeless basket. Any tips would be appreciated!
          Its prob all too late now.....you could more appropriately delete the descaler & grinder cleaner from your order and add a matched tamper(if you dont already have one), scales and the appropriate filtration to suit your local water. Much more focused investments at this stage..... IMHO.
          GL

          Comment


          • #7
            Originally posted by EspressoAdventurer View Post
            Is this a single dose / basket? 19g out is a low qty shot output.
            Sorry, is the standard 19g ECM basket, so I am running 19g in 38g out

            Originally posted by EspressoAdventurer View Post
            Notate / mark up (non permanent) your grind settings as BION settings will be confused / forgotten over time.
            What's a BION setting sorry? Are you just talking about making sure I keep track of the current setting, i.e. 2.5

            Originally posted by EspressoAdventurer View Post
            Its prob all too late now.....you could more appropriately delete the descaler & grinder cleaner from your order and add a matched tamper(if you dont already have one), scales and the appropriate filtration to suit your local water. Much more focused investments at this stage..... IMHO.
            GL
            Are you saying it is too late to clean the machine full stop? As in it is now unfixable? Why would I not clean it accordingly?

            When you say matched tamper, I just run the ECM one provided. Do I need a different one?

            Consider as well I am upgrading to the 20g ridgless VST shortly.

            This said, I am considering now to upgrade to the puqpress mini.

            Comment


            • #8
              Sorry to hijack this thread

              I too have an ECM Synch and have been having consistency issues

              Setup
              ecm Synch (purchased april2022)
              Niche zero (april2022)
              beans - willow coffee roasters in Adelaide, roast date 22/8 (my most recent bag, usually roast dates are never more than 2 weeks old when I buy)

              Currently niche is set to 10, sometimes 9-9.5. The grind setting used to be 12-14 but since I cleaned the niche it’s changed (yes I calibrated, watched YT, calibrated again, and again to make sure it was true). I used WDT and occasionally RDT. Maybe it’s Adelaide but sometimes even with RDT the static I get is crazy

              Using acaia lunar my shots: 20g in, 35g out in 30s, Pullman 19-22g bottomless basket. Reg Barber 58.5 tamper

              Flavour isn’t bad but sometimes inconsistent.

              I’m happy it’s not an equipment issue, I think I’ve got some pretty solid gear here
              I tried pulling a 22g shot and it was about the same. Multiple streams that come together as a single one in about 13s, rarely some channeling

              I’m not sure how to improve this more…

              Comment


              • FilthySudo
                FilthySudo commented
                Editing a comment
                What Tom said below. I have a sync and niche. I have a vst 18g basket and grind 17.5g, I use rdt on my beans before grinding them, I use WDT and then tamp with Pullman bigstep tamper, use a bottomless p/f and I never have any inconsistencies unless I’m changing different beans or when they start to get older. Like Tom said, a video of your puck prep and a video of your shot from a bottomless basket will be able to help to rectify what you’re doing wrong or if it’s a bean issue or other issue

            • #9
              Longrass It certainly won't be too late to clean your machine but definitely remove the shower screen to see what build-up of residual coffee is stuck under there. That may not explain the fact that you're getting gushes as well as chokers but still worth doing and of course run the cleaning and descaling routine from the manual.

              mathiar are the beans light roast? A pic of them would help.

              Both both of you, Videos of your puck preparation and pour (using a bottomless portable basket if you can) are always very helpful in diagnosing what's going on. You can upload to YouTube or Vimeo of Drive and pop a link here.

              Comment


              • #10
                Click image for larger version

Name:	EB5BD9EC-A0E8-47CD-91C7-80840595BE0D.jpg
Views:	326
Size:	206.8 KB
ID:	926731 Here you go, sorry about the angle - it was 5:30am and I had to do this myself and don’t have any fancy gadgets to hold the phone

                Dose was 20g in and 39.6g out at 22s with grinder set at a fraction below 10 on a Niche Zero

                https://youtube.com/shorts/zYTXz5bmdJ8?feature=share

                https://youtube.com/shorts/6M7hwGRRsHc?feature=share

                Comment


                • #11
                  https://youtube.com/shorts/RnRMs2l6r40?feature=share

                  Here is another the same morning where I reduced to grind setting 9, everything else the same (sorry had to cut out audio to spare all your ears from screaming children)

                  20g in, 40 out at 33 seconds

                  Comment


                  • roosterben
                    roosterben commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I have pretty much the same setup Synch/Niche. Your puck prep looks fine, as mentioned above equipment is solid, unless you have a poorly aligned Niche which is pretty much unheard of then it comes back to your beans.

                    With the current beans the shot loses colour quickly which likely means they are a light roast or stale. You need to reduce the grind and keep in mind the first 4-5 seconds of the shot are the mechanical pre-infusion from the E61 group. Adjust your grind finder and maybe shoot for 35-40 seconds total shot time. Visually the shot is flowing too fast.

                    As annoying as it sounds I would try a different roaster and to make things easier if you are making milk coffee stick with blends (not single origin) to get started. Single origins will probably be roasted lighter to highlight the flavours and are harder to dial in and make consistent shots with.

                    Also as much as the Niche is close to zero retention, if you are having consistency issues weigh your ground coffee and market sure it is exactly 20 grams, if not grind a couple more beans through and top up the ground coffee to exactly 20 grams.

                • #12
                  Yeah I’m not too sure how to proceed here

                  I’ll try going finer, that’ll take me into the 8-9 setting

                  I started with a roaster around the corner but all their beans on sale started having older roast dates
                  Then I changed to another that was from Melbourne but I wanted to stay local (Adelaide) so found a small community roaster

                  This batch of beans was roasted 22/8 and it’s only 31/8 so I’m not sure how much fresher I can get…

                  Niche weight is pretty consistent, usually 0.3g difference when I’ve weighed pre and post

                  Comment


                  • FilthySudo
                    FilthySudo commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Prep looks fine, but my only gripe with your prep is how you are tamping. You look to be just pressing with your palm on top of the tamper rather than actually gripping the tamper with your fingers pushing on the top part of the base. I do this as I can feel my consistent pressure each time and also when I press down my fingers usually touch the sides or almost touch the sides of the basket so it’s even each and every time.

                    My next Q is, how long do you leave your machine on prior to pulling a shot? Do you have the portafilter in the group head when the machine is warming up. To keep up with consistency, you should half lock your portafilter in the group head and let it warm up for 20-30mind prior to pulling a shot. Once I do my puck prep, I pull the lever for 1-2 seconds just as a quick flush, and then I pull my shot. If I use the same bean from day to day, my timing of each shot is within 2-3 seconds of the previous day usually, with the exception being the beans are getting older so usually you have to adjust from one shot to adjust finer for the following day to keep up with the ageing process. Hope anything I’ve mentioned can help. But like others said, sometimes a change in roastery or different beans might help to work out if it’s a particular bean issue or particular roaster issue

                  • mathiar
                    mathiar commented
                    Editing a comment
                    So beans are stored in an air scape and kept in a cupboard
                    They get portioned out into glass containers (commandante glass jars from alternativebrewing) with a screw on lid that are also kept in said cupboard (which is pitch black inside). The time between portioning our beans and using them is 1 day at most because we portion out 2-3 shots (20g of beans) at a time. They come in some kind of foil-sequel bag with a valve - typical 250g bags I’ve seen at tons of shops

                    The machine comes on at 5:30 via smart plug and the first shot is pulled around 6:15. I almost always run a few seconds of water through before I start to warm the PF but also in case my wife last used it as she has a habit of “missing” a few spots on the PF for cleaning

                • #13
                  Freshness of roasted beans isn't only a matter of how long since they were roasted. Another huge factor is how the beans have been/are being stored.

                  Have you taken a look at the Roasted Bean Storage forum? If not it's worth a good look.


                  Java "Freshness depends on many things" phile
                  Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                  Comment


                  • mathiar
                    mathiar commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I use a large stainless steel air scape container. We buy between 250-500g a week (depending on the roast date) and I pre-measure up to 4 doses in a glass container - these usually lst 2 days as I have two shots a day and wife has one a day

                  • Javaphile
                    Javaphile commented
                    Editing a comment
                    @mathiar

                    What do your beans come in from the roaster/cafe?
                    How are they stored at the roaster/cafe?
                    Once in the containers at home where are they kept?
                    Are they in a cool dark location?
                    Does the sun hit them at any time?
                    Is the glass container sealed airtight?
                    How large is the glass container?
                    Do you notice a difference from the 1st shot out of the glass container compared to the last one?


                    Java "Lots of variables" phile

                • #14
                  mathiar thanks for the videos and pic of the beans.

                  In your puck prep video you tapped the portafilter on the bench after you raked the puck. That normally shifts the puck away from one part of the wall. If you want to tap/bump you are better to do it before you rake. That will drop any grinds clinging onto the walls of the funnel into the basket. I don't know of any upside to tapping the portafilter on the bench after your have distributed the grinds with the puck rake. I'm only aware of potential downside in that you have carefully distributed the grinds with the rake and the tap then redistributes them in an uneven manner. It's counter productive.

                  You are best to get a self levelling tamper. it's very easy to unevenly tamp without one.

                  In the video of your pour, there is evidence of an uneven tamp or uneven distribution of the grinds, or both. The pour starts faster on your side of the basket and slower on the machine's side. Also, note the hole in the pour that appears initially on the machine side of the basket and the darker color on the same siide during the latter half of the pour. That means you are going to have a slightly "uneven" taste in the cup. It's not a sinker, but it's not going to be ideal either.

                  The beans you are using may also be contributing to a flavor that you're not entirely happy with. Try a slightly darker roast. Look for beans that have just a tiny bit of oil on the outside of some beans (not all beans). It's hard to determine the roast depth from a photo but my guess would be Medium or possibly even "City" (medium/light) and that makes it a little tricker to get an even pour. (I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the beans or the roast other than the lighter the roast the trickier it can be to prevent channelling.)

                  In summary, darker roasted beans e.g. Full City (Medium/Dark) and a self levelling tamper and you should taste improvements. You kit is top notch and so the big improvement is to be found in the tool holding the portafilter ?

                  Comment


                  • mathiar
                    mathiar commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thanks I’ll try not tapping post. I have tried that in the past and not noticed an appreciable difference
                    I’ve been looking at the self leveling tampers and interested in trying them.
                    Probably the easiest (and cheapest) purchase change will be beans first. I’m keen to not continue buying too many additional things (I really like my tamper, it was a parting gift from Reg Barber when I finished up at my old cafe over a decade ago now…I’ve just never had a machine worthy of using it till now!

                  • tompoland
                    tompoland commented
                    Editing a comment
                    So with the tamper, keep using it if you prefer and just check and make sure that the height of the puck is level all around. If it looks level (a basket with a ridge makes it easier to see) then your second check point is the pour. I think it's just great that you are not settling for something you are not satisfied with. You will get where you want to go because you have great equipment and a progressive attitude.

                • #15
                  And I would also grinder just a little finer. A couple of notches on the Niche.

                  Comment


                  • mathiar
                    mathiar commented
                    Editing a comment
                    That’ll put me down to 6-8 at this stage if that’s the case but I’ll try all these things over the next few days and report back

                  • Barry O'Speedwagon
                    Barry O'Speedwagon commented
                    Editing a comment
                    You seem a little hung up on the specific numbers that use on the Niche scale. Don't worry about them. If you need to go finer, go finer. If that's 5-6, so what?

                    I'm guessing that there's no chance that a stone went through the grinder?

                  • tompoland
                    tompoland commented
                    Editing a comment
                    As Barry said, ignore the numbers. 6-8 is really immaterial. And there is a reason that there is a 0 and 1 on the Niche dial. You have plenty to play with and a darker bean will have you moving the dial coarser again to achieve the same ratio of grams in and grams out. (Light beans need a finer grind).
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