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  • Decent Espresso Ripping Off Australian Customers

    This is a disgrace since the machine is manufactured shipped from the same location in Hong Kong. This is not acceptable, no excuses #canceldecentespresso

    I used a VPN to see the pricing differences, see images attached. Ignore the shippings costs, only look at machine pricing. You would need to add GST (10%) to the Hong Kong and USA machine prices.
    DE1XL 1.44
    HK: HKD 31240+10% GST = HKD 34364 = AUD 6175
    USA: USD 3999 + 10% GST = USD 4399 = AUD 6194
    AUD Price $6926

    Please explain Decent Espresso?
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  • #2
    This will be posted on all forums to call out NOT so Decent Espresso

    Comment


    • TheBoneRanger
      TheBoneRanger commented
      Editing a comment
      Haven’t seen these in the other forums yet. Perhaps a change of heart?

    • JT1
      JT1 commented
      Editing a comment
      This has come up a few times, the response was:

      “1) Canada/Australia/EU have an annoying customs regime, that makes it impossible for us to send machines back to HK for repairs, without double-paying import duty.
      2) thus I have had to hire an employee in Montreal to repair Canadian decent machines. Same for EU and Australia.
      3) Canada has more consumer rights than the USA, and compliance costs money
      4) shipping warranty parts to those countries is way more expensive than shipping to the USA. Typically 2x as much. We pay for that.”

      “We price Canadian, Australian and European machines at a 15% premium due to customs, local repairs, and increased compliance cost.”

      While I think we are still getting charged a bit more over and above this, it’s a pretty reasonable response. If your figures are correct we’re sitting at a 12% premium.

      https://www.home-barista.com/advice/...0.html#p746037

    • Caffeinator
      Caffeinator commented
      Editing a comment
      Whinger!

      Grab some flights and go buy one in HK then. So sick of reading this shit.

  • #3
    Why don't you ask decentespresso John about this you dhead, before you explode your lunacy all over the internet. You think you are smart by using a VPN? It would be much smarter to ask the man who can answer your question as to why there is a difference. I'm almost speechless. Sooo many words come to mind. There are good reasons as to the price difference and they have been explained here on many occaisions. Just search before you do anything else that beggars belief.

    Comment


    • WhatEverBeansNecessary
      WhatEverBeansNecessary commented
      Editing a comment
      Cancel culture - easier to make a broadcast statement than finding out a little more.

  • #4
    1. I can’t ignore the shipping if you want to also factor in GST because the shipping costs has a GST component.
    2. GST is not a flat 10% after you factor in brokerage and custom entry fees.
    3. I imagine they transact a lot in USD and have to price accordingly to forecast where the USD is going otherwise the price will have to keep changing.

    What did decent say when you asked them about it?

    Comment


    • #5
      xioxxio That's poor form posting something like this without asking the manufacturer first.

      John at Decent Espresso is very approachable, ask him why the different pricing structure instead of splattergun slagging on websites.
      ...and feel free to come back to this thread and post the reason.

      Comment


      • #6
        Really says something when a guy, who is shopping for a $6k espresso machine will go completely mental over the idea of paying 12% more than someone else

        Chill, bro

        Comment


        • #7
          Those figures may well be true (as of this point in time). But certainly contacting Decent Espresso before writing a 'bad review ' type post would have been preferable - Perhaps the communication is slightly delayed due to Chinese new Year Celebration ? Anyway - here is more of the back story.


          For those interested in a bit more transparency. John Buckman (ie Decent Espresso) - earmarked price rises initially about six months ago ( on a number of coffee forums) - aimed around the cycle time of the end of V1.43 ( and included a few updates about possible increases as well as price rises his company has experienced in the past two years)

          He also included rationale and basis for currency exchange rates - where USD vs all others was captured - ( AUD and GBP were pretty weak - and so price rises were greater) ( Note he locks in a currency position and tries to hold that position for a long time in his product cycle - and sometimes like other businesses wears poor exchange rates.

          His AUD price also outlines extra charges ( so dearer than 6926 to land it)
          Similarly Canada , New Zealand etc get charge at their country import and tax rates.

          Just for some comparison - two purchases of Niche Zero Grinders from UK- depending on exchange rates at the time ( poor old GBP) and if import tax was charged for items over the threshold - could see anywhere from AUD 950 to AUD 1450 cost landed in Australia just differences within the past 6-9 months)

          If you go to ordering - you will also see we pay higher shipping from HK to AUS than HK to US and our additional taxes are higher ( I don;t know if it varies in taxes from state to state in USA.... probably) - but those figures are beyond the control of DEcent Espresso


          So to xioxxio your exchange rates are different to Decent - and take into consideration lots more things and a longer term cycle .... and Yes the Decent machine is certainly in the Extreme Machine Price Bracket


          Comment


          • #8
            If you go through the Decent thread John is very open that he charges 20% more to Australia (and I believe NZ as well now) for both machines and accessories. He posted that some time back, at least a year and could be as much as 3 years. The 20% premium is because John finds it more expensive to do business in Australia. I am not sure what the extra expense is possibly shipping costs for spares? Aus support person? Both are real costs. It isn't Australian approval as the Decent doesn't have that. Possibly because local imports have substantial costs and John is pricing against them? It is probably best to ask John why the 20% extra margin for Australian purchases. He is very open and am sure he will explain why.

            Bottom line, if you are in Australia you are asked for 20% extra for the same machine. Either accept it or vote with your wallet, Decent doesn't have a monopoly on good coffee machines. If you feel discriminated against because of your Nationality vote with your wallet. Cancelling seems a little over the top for something which has been public policy for a few years.

            Comment


            • #9
              https://coffeesnobs.com.au/forum/equ...158#post834062

              My memory was poor, it is 15% extra and in post 2357 in the above link John explained that it is because Australian Customs are hard work and other reasons. That was July 2020

              Comment


              • #10
                I really dont think you are doing yourself any favours, nor will you get much support posting this up.
                would have been much better to simply ask the question as others have said to find out the answer.
                There are plenty of happy customers here in Aus and none have ever complained about pricing.
                if you simply don't like the way the pricing structure is, you can chose not to purchase, and look at something else.

                sorry mate, but this to me is like a kid not getting his way and throwing themselves on the floor yelling and screaming

                Comment


                • #11
                  Originally posted by 338 View Post
                  If you go through the Decent thread John is very open that he charges 20% more to Australia (and I believe NZ as well now) for both machines and accessories. He posted that some time back, at least a year and could be as much as 3 years. The 20% premium is because John finds it more expensive to do business in Australia. I am not sure what the extra expense is possibly shipping costs for spares? Aus support person? Both are real costs. It isn't Australian approval as the Decent doesn't have that. Possibly because local imports have substantial costs and John is pricing against them? It is probably best to ask John why the 20% extra margin for Australian purchases. He is very open and am sure he will explain why.

                  Bottom line, if you are in Australia you are asked for 20% extra for the same machine. Either accept it or vote with your wallet, Decent doesn't have a monopoly on good coffee machines. If you feel discriminated against because of your Nationality vote with your wallet. Cancelling seems a little over the top for something which has been public policy for a few years.
                  It is true that my HK staff is off until thursday, but the Westerners among us (me included) are working.

                  At any rate, no need to use a VPN, you can just change your country to USA (or wherever) and you'll see that country's prices. The VPN just meant that we "guessed" your country as the USA, so you didn't need to tell us. Here's where you set your destination country: https://decentespresso.com/c

                  The replies above largely say what I would have written. Namely,
                  • we offer a two year warranty, where we take care of everything (parts and labor costs, but unusually, all shipping costs too). And we're about to offer a "forever warranty" that lets you indefinitely extend this for never-ending two year terms.
                  • all non-USA countries (not just AU) are charged 15% more than the USA prices. This includes EU, Canada, UK, etc...
                  • this extra charge is partially because shipping to/from the USA is remarkably cheap (half of elsewhere) and duty-free. It's pretty unique on the planet, whereas Australia's tariff regime is among the worst on the planet. AU violates the WTO ITA agreement (there's talk of a WTO lawsuit against AU), and charges import duty on software, and tends to not honor shipping machines out/in for repairs without them be re-tariffed. https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/focus_e/focus17_e.pdf - these shipping and duty costs increase the costs of dealing with AU.
                  • as a result, we decided to repair machines in Brisbane, with my lead mechanical engineer, which is far more expensive than what we do in other countries, where I can use my Hong Kong team to do repairs.
                  • and yes, our costs are all in USD$, and the A$ has lost value, so our v1.44 machines are more expensive than the v1.43 ones, because v1.44 uses current exchange rates. I've posted about this unfortunate situation, and highly recommend Australians buy the last remaining v1.43 machines, which are still priced at the year-old A$/USD$ exchange rate.
                  -john

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Tbh I used to feel the same way years ago when buying apple products in the UK. I always felt like us Brits were getting robbed!

                    However, after some research it turned out to be very expensive to sell in the UK from overseas. Especially when you consider in shipping, tax etc. Most of the time the companies had less profit margin than they did in their home country. I completely understand now and it’s not like they’re trying to milk more money out of certain countries just because they can.

                    Now that I live in Australia I can see you guys have it worst! It’s just the way it is unfortunately. It will always be cheaper to buy something manufactured in your country (most of the time). For example Breville. My trusty dual boiler was a steal over here compared to the UK.

                    Full respect to John for being so transparent. I hope to own a decent one day once I save my pennies and I'm in a position to do so.

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      I’m not convinced this is a ‘Decent’ thing. I think this is an ‘Australia’ thing.

                      Have you, OP, checked out other comparable machines prices world wide compared to Australia? Or other comparable luxury goods? Watches, for example? Cars?

                      If you’re convinced it’s a ‘Decent’ thing, then buy a lightly used one from O/S and get it shipped. Maybe you’ll get lucky and it will skip customs tax and fees. Or, you’ll just end up with a lightly used machine for a similar price…

                      Comment


                      • Lyrebird
                        Lyrebird commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Yep, widely known as the "Australia Tax". There's even a Wiki page on it FFS:

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Tax

                        Ironically appropriate that this came up on Jan 26th.

                      • 20in40out
                        20in40out commented
                        Editing a comment
                        The concept of "The Australia Tax" doesn't really apply to physical goods as much as it does digital goods
                        As John has said, taxes and duties that are required to get anything into Aus are extreme and only serve to line the pockets of the Gov. There's not much Suppliers can do about it
                        "The Australia Tax" is when digital service providers (Apple, Netflix, Spotify, Adobe, ect) charge Australians considerably more for digital only goods than they would in other markets simply because "we know you'll pay it"

                        You can thank our, relatively, high median income and standard of living for that one

                    • #14
                      Originally posted by decentespresso View Post
                      [*]this extra charge is partially because shipping to/from the USA is remarkably cheap (half of elsewhere) and duty-free. It's pretty unique on the planet, whereas Australia's tariff regime is among the worst on the planet. AU violates the WTO ITA agreement (there's talk of a WTO lawsuit against AU), and charges import duty on software, and tends to not honor shipping machines out/in for repairs without them be re-tariffed. https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/focus_e/focus17_e.pdf - these shipping and duty costs increase the costs of dealing with AU.[/LIST]-john
                      John totally agree with why you charge extra for some regions due to costs.

                      Slightly digressing, but as a patriotic Australian on Australia Day, I have to take exception with the inaccuracies in your comment. For the most part, Australia does not charge Duty on software but do charge GST(goods and services tax, similar to VAT). This creates a level playing field for Australian businesses who would have a disadvantage against overseas companies. Otherwise every software business would supply from o/s and be 10% cheaper than their competitors. I assume you know their is no duty as last time I checked the price on a Decent had exactly 10% for GST.

                      Totally agree with Australia's system being difficult and not at all suited for returning machines, our system makes the consumer the exporter and the responsibility and work that brings. But worst in the world?? What about the country you produce in, export from and you chose to officially become a resident of? At least Australian Customs has a manual and operates to rule of law. China imposed a bunch of quality tests on Australian coal, wine, grains (especially barley), lobster. Initially this was explained in the Global Times (Beijing's mouthpiece) as China wanting to 'punish' Australia for having the temerity to suggest that, in the middle of the world's worst health crisis in anyone's lifetime, that an independent review should be conducted in to the origins of Covid. They eventually claimed it was due to dumping but these were garbage reasons. This caused billions of dollars damage to the Australian economy (though interestingly enough not coal) especially small businesses and family owned farms. Just to the lobster industry it was meant to have cost $1.6b. This was being discussed with WTO by Australia. Of course this same Customs system still trades with Russia when others won't. So I would rate a Customs system which can cause billions of dollars damage to an economy and small businesses because of a perceived slight, which is being used in a bullying and vindictive way as 'the worst in the world'.

                      Comment


                      • #15
                        Originally posted by 338 View Post
                        Slightly digressing, but as a patriotic Australian on Australia Day, I have to take exception with the inaccuracies in your comment. For the most part, Australia does not charge Duty on software but do charge GST(goods and services tax, similar to VAT). This creates a level playing field for Australian businesses who would have a disadvantage against overseas companies. Otherwise every software business would supply from o/s and be 10% cheaper than their competitors. I assume you know their is no duty as last time I checked the price on a Decent had exactly 10% for GST.
                        My mistake, you're totally right. I had mis-assumed that AU charged both duty and GST on imports, but no, only GST is charged, which I agree, is fair. We get our tax numbers from the shipping company (so we don't need to understand each country's rule) and the rate appears to be 10% plus a 0.48% customs-clearance administration fee, which is very reasonable.

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                        Originally posted by 338 View Post
                        Totally agree with Australia's system being difficult and not at all suited for returning machines, our system makes the consumer the exporter and the responsibility and work that brings. But worst in the world?? What about the country you produce in, export from and you chose to officially become a resident of? At least Australian Customs has a manual and operates to rule of law. China imposed a bunch of quality tests on Australian coal, wine, grains (especially barley), lobster. Initially this was explained in the Global Times (Beijing's mouthpiece) as China wanting to 'punish' Australia for having the temerity to suggest that, in the middle of the world's worst health crisis in anyone's lifetime, that an independent review should be conducted in to the origins of Covid. They eventually claimed it was due to dumping but these were garbage reasons. This caused billions of dollars damage to the Australian economy (though interestingly enough not coal) especially small businesses and family owned farms. Just to the lobster industry it was meant to have cost $1.6b. This was being discussed with WTO by Australia. Of course this same Customs system still trades with Russia when others won't. So I would rate a Customs system which can cause billions of dollars damage to an economy and small businesses because of a perceived slight, which is being used in a bullying and vindictive way as 'the worst in the world'.
                        ​I hope it's ok that I avoid a political discussion, given that I live in Hong Kong.

                        -john

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