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Stovetops: Aluminium vs Stainless Steel

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  • bialettiuser
    replied
    How to clean and polish from both rubber gasket melting and steeping too long?

    I have an aluminum moka pot that has sentimental value for me. Yesterday, I attempted to clean it by running water through it. But I forgot about it on the stovetop and burned it. The rubber gasket melted and a dark brown color developed all around the base. I tried scrubbing out the melted rubber with many applications of baking soda and boiling water. Today, I repeated that and it appears that I must've let it sit for too long in the water (?). Now, the outside of the moka pot (especially the top chamber) has an uneven dark gray (or black) color along the portion that was submerged in the water. I'm so upset with myself for making the problem worse and worse. You had mentioned that the aluminum moka pot can always be cleaned and polished — what would you recommend using to clean up what I've done? (I've gotten most of the rubber out but there's still a little bit and also the black tarnish? Is the black tarnish something that will keep coming back?) I know it's been a long time since your post but I thought I'd try you anyway — thanks for your help!

    Originally posted by nzbungalow View Post
    Aluminium vs Inox


    I have mokas in both aluminium and stainless steel. I use stainless steel on a daily basis and aluminium weekly, when two cups/mugs are required at the same time. My flavour preference is for aluminium, but as aluminium mokas need to be cleaned and dried immediately after use the stainless is easier.


    As for corrosion, I have an aluminium Bialetti I have owned for over thirty years and it is still going strong. Stainless pots simply don't take rough use, that is overcooking. If you are making coffee in a moka pot daily (and more than once daily) you will eventually leave one on the hob too long. (FYI I cook on gas.) Stainless pots all burn and stain permanently if left on the hob too long. (Yes, of course that ruins the coffee too!) In the 1980s I treated myself to an Alessi La Conica which has (had) a lifetime warranty. First the copper base came off from overcooking and differential expansion/shrinkage (1980s), then the ball fell off the top (2000s), and finally, a few years ago, it had a blowout in the base from corrosion (the ultimate result of overcooking stainless), rendering in useless. The warranty paperwork was long gone. If a stainless pot is overcooked it will eventually corrode.


    The worst damage an aluminium pot gets from overcooking is a melted or burned gasket. They will always clean up fine, and polish up too if you so wish.


    As the cost of replacing the La Conica locally was prohibitive I bought a replacement online, along with a La Cupola and a Moka Alessi which all together shipped to NZ for less than the local price for the La Conica alone. I mention this here as together they formed the foundation for my moka collection, which has since increased to over thirty pots, old and new, including Bialettis, Atomics, Caffexpresses (my personal favourite), La Signoras, Nova Expresses and many more classic Italian pots.


    I try to buy old mokas NIB or at least in undented and unscratched condition, knowing that no matter how grubby it is an aluminium pot will always polish up, whereas once burned a stainless moka will never look nice again. My new unused La Conica is the only stainless moka in my collection. The daily use pot, also stainless, but never to be a display item, is an old burned Bialetti. For weekly (two mug) use I have the choice of a Caffexpress or a stainless Moka SEB, but my preference, for flavour, is for the Caffexpress, bought in NZ in clean used condition. I have no qualms about using my smaller Caffexpress for a daily jolt, knowing it will always polish up but I'm just too lazy.

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  • TampIt
    replied
    Originally posted by 3rutu5 View Post
    Wow what a mass debate! I have 5 stove tops... 3 top quality stainless pots and 2 pretty little bialetti aluminium numbers....ss for drinking, aluminium for show as they look quite classy in the kitchen...I've heard this debate when I got my first stainless pot around 15 years ago fromy father as well.

    I have uncles who swear by the aluminium pots as well as that's what they used when they were in Italy, but that's probably because it came free with a bag of coffee at the deli, so it's probably not a great reference
    G'day 3rutu5

    I also have (quite) a few examples of this tech. My old "Moka Pot / Carmencitas": Apart from a couple of original Carmencitas I also have virtually every size SS Vev made in the late '70's early '80's and 10 or so Clones in 316 SS from China (yep, until the price of nickel soared China made some world class SS from the early to the late 80's, just as the Vev SS went to rubbish).

    A quick update for those who like this technology (I do, although I also do "true espresso machines" and traditional Turkish - SS Ibrik bought in the late 70's).

    I now have three SS Rommelsbacher "Electspresso deluxe's" (one 2/4 cup and 2 * 3/6 cup units, both in superb German SS). For the aluminium aficionados there is an equivalent unit in ally (not a Rommelsbacher - perhaps it was a Bialetti?), although it is way more primitive and far less tolerant of grinding textures.

    Anyway, the Rommelsbachers are the easiest, most consistent variant of this tech I know of. They are self contained, with a separate heating ring (i.e. like a cordless kettle). Fill the base to the water mark for the number of cups, fill the correctly sized basket to the brim with coffee (about halfway between expresso and plunger grind is best, however they are extremely tolerant on the grind, tamping not needed), screw the "business parts" together until the marks align, place them on the heating ring, hit the switch and pour out a superb coffee when it "pops the switch". It even generates a bit of crema if you tinker with the grind a little. After a good couple of years the oldest (2/4 cup) one still seals a couple of mms beyond the alignment marks.

    As for the coffee - IF I am at the top of my game I can match it with one of my manual makers. If I am slightly off my best (i.e. pre first morning coffee) the Rommelsbacher wins hands down.

    The bad news - You will probably have to buy it online and convert the plug to Oz as I got all of mine via Munich.

    Enjoy your cuppa - the rest is irrelevant


    TampIt

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  • 3rutu5
    replied
    Wow what a mass debate! I have 5 stove tops... 3 top quality stainless pots and 2 pretty little bialetti aluminium numbers....ss for drinking, aluminium for show as they look quite classy in the kitchen...I've heard this debate when I got my first stainless pot around 15 years ago fromy father as well.

    I have uncles who swear by the aluminium pots as well as that's what they used when they were in Italy, but that's probably because it came free with a bag of coffee at the deli, so it's probably not a great reference

    Leave a comment:


  • Magic_Matt
    replied
    Originally posted by burr View Post
    This whole thread is rather amusing to me as I remember getting bothered not being able to clean my moka pot properly. Regardless of how much hot water, detergent, and scrubbing, the residue wouldn't come off.
    This is an example of what I like to call "beausage"

    Note that this does not apply to espresso machines... [emoji15]

    Leave a comment:


  • sctsprin
    replied
    For what it's worth I think the taste is far superior from SS than aluminium pots, though I admit I've only drunk from alloy pots that were blackened inside.
    i can get bright fruit flavours with an ek43 ground Kenyan SO with SS, which taste muddied in alloy

    the alloy pots were friends pots used only when camping and cleaned within 1/2 hour of use after breakfast

    i hate the fact you can't clean them properly and get crap all over the tea towel too, especially when you have limited gear camping

    you do have to be careful with SS that you don't burn the grounds though due to the poorer conduction I guess sometimes making it take a long time to boil

    Must say I much prefer my portaspresso, but often don't have the energy to fiddle with all of the warmup steps, especially when it's winter and the brass is freezing

    my two cents
    Last edited by sctsprin; 24 April 2016, 09:25 AM.

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  • Muse
    replied
    Originally posted by burr View Post
    I remember getting bothered not being able to clean my moka pot properly. Regardless of how much hot water, detergent, and scrubbing, the residue wouldn't come off.
    Originally posted by nzbungalow View Post
    Aluminium vs Inox

    Stainless pots all burn and stain permanently if left on the hob too long.

    ...once burned a stainless moka will never look nice again.
    I have owned a VeV (made by Bialetti) stainless steel moka pot for well over 30 years and made upwards of 40,000 brews in it. Quite a few times I inadvertently left the gas flame on high under this thing without attention, and of course, this causes the pot to darken, stain very considerably, seemingly permanently. I have tried many many means to restore the brilliant mirror-like brand new look to the pot and only one method has worked, all others completely fail.

    If a pot is merely stained by a light residue that hasn't penetrated the metal, it can be cleaned off with some Bon Ami and a small piece of wet cloth, but serious compromise of the surface of the pot caused by excessive heat will not surrender to any measure save this (I did this just a few days ago and my 32 year old pot looks brand new). The pot itself says this on the bottom:

    VeV INOX
    18/10
    Made in Italy
    T6

    The only thing that really works for me is to use wet-dry (black) sandpapers. These sandpapers can (and usually should) be used with water. I start with a very coarse grade, either 150 or 180 grit and work successively all the way up to extremely fine grits:

    (150)
    180
    220
    320
    400
    500
    600
    1200
    1500

    It is necessary to use successively finer grades of sandpaper in order to work out the scratches made by the coarser grades. By the time you've used the 1500, the machine looks brand new!

    Before each usage, I wash the exterior with a soft kitchen-spongy netted dish cleaning implement with some soap and water (and rinse). This really helps to keep the maker looking great.

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  • burr
    replied
    + 1 on the seasoning after chemical backflushing. I always assumed sacrificing the shot was to appease the coffee gods

    This whole thread is rather amusing to me as I remember getting bothered not being able to clean my moka pot properly. Regardless of how much hot water, detergent, and scrubbing, the residue wouldn't come off.

    Leave a comment:


  • speleomike
    replied
    Hi all

    Remember that the surface of your Al pot is not Al, it's aluminium oxide (Al2O3) as Al immediately oxidises in air. It's really the porosity of the oxide coating that may adsorb any oils from the first coffee that is run through a cleaned pot. I bet that if you run an analysis across the surface of your pot you will find a lot of adsorbed organics.

    Just cut up your pot and place a bit of the pot (just a one sq. cm) with the inside facing up in an electron microscope and do a light element analysis. Or use a laser ablation mass spec scan over the surface.

    Mike

    Mike

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  • Barry O'Speedwagon
    replied
    Originally posted by MrJack View Post
    I guess the question that remains is why Barry?

    There seems to be a lot of talk about seasoning, and the porosity of Aluminium in this thread, but little about a) what "seasoning" actually achieves (subjectively or chemically) nor b) what relevance porosity has to this.
    Very fair question. And I suspect that what we describe as 'seasoning' may differ across devices. For me with the e61 group I think it is pretty simple. The first few shots after a chemical backflush (even with lots of clean water flushes after the chemicals) ensure that the group is lined with something other than detergent (and in particular something that doesn't conflict with the taste of the coffee oils being extracted in the basket). Whatever it is, it tastes better

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  • MrJack
    replied
    I guess the question that remains is why Barry?

    There seems to be a lot of talk about seasoning, and the porosity of Aluminium in this thread, but little about a) what "seasoning" actually achieves (subjectively or chemically) nor b) what relevance porosity has to this.

    Leave a comment:


  • mds
    replied
    Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Hi Mel,

    Simples. I pull a few shots through it and chuck them in the sink prior to making a coffee that I intend drinking. This is after chemical backflushes, not backflushes with water.

    Cheers
    BOSW.
    BOSW, thanks, it makes sense. I'll definitely give it a go.
    Mel

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  • Barry O'Speedwagon
    replied
    Originally posted by mds View Post
    BOS, how do you season the group?

    Mel
    Hi Mel,

    Simples. I pull a few shots through it and chuck them in the sink prior to making a coffee that I intend drinking. This is after chemical backflushes, not backflushes with water.

    Cheers
    BOSW.

    Leave a comment:


  • mds
    replied
    Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Well, it's for slightly different reasons, but I season the group after a backflush.
    BOS, how do you season the group?

    Mel

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  • Barry O'Speedwagon
    replied
    Well, it's for slightly different reasons, but I season the group after a backflush.

    Leave a comment:


  • blend52
    replied
    They are not "stale burnt coffee oils"....like it or not, that is the seasoning that we have been discussing throughout this thread, .
    Call it what you wish, but i assume they are some form of coffee (oil ?) residues left from previous brews.
    So , inevitably they must be old ( stale ?) and reheated many times (burnt ?).. but we shall call it "seasoning" so as not to offend the moka gods.
    but you did not address the question i posed... why are those same "seasoning " products not considered desirable in the espresso world ?

    Leave a comment:

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