Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
Thanks to all for your input.
I have an admission to make, I was actually looking at an Audrey, not a Silvia. Might sound silly, but I didnt want to draw attention to the fact that one was going cheap on ebay if I could help it, and from what Ive read, theyre near on identical internals to the Silvia. I thought that the older incarnation may go unrecognised to a degree (it was also poorly listed/advertised).
I did bid, but only to a fairly lowly level, and missed out with it going for around $150. Pretty cheap I reckon, and hopefully the winning bidder gets good service out of it, but based on the advice of those familiar with both the Ikon and Silvia (ergo Audrey), I felt no real inclination to get into a bidding war to secure it.
Based on the favourable comparisons between the Ikon and Silvia, Ive decided that Ill aim to upgrade my grinder first... that way I should get some short term gains with the Ikon, and be better placed to get the best out of my next machine, whatever that may be.
Thanks again for everyones input.
Damien
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
Honestly Damien, I think that the Silvia is only half a step up from the Ikon.
Having had both an Ikon and the La San Marco equivalent of the Silvia, the best way to increase the quality of your coffee would be to upgrade the grinder.
Silvia and Ikon are both small, single boiler machines--and have many of the same advantages and disadvantages as each other. The smaller portafilter and baskets of the Ikon make only a small difference in the extraction. Some high-end machines also run baskets at a smaller diameter than 58mm and the reviews indicate that these are often an advantage and more forgiving of less-than-perfect technique. The Ikon baskets are reasonably deep.
The next class of machine, IMO, up from the Ikon would be an E61 head, single boiler such as the Diadema or Vibiemme. These give better temperature stability, better steam, and have larger boilers. Their boilers still have to be manually re-filled after steaming.
Greg
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
Wrt running the water level down increasing the possibility of blowing elements: This is the same as with any domestic machine with boiler instead of thermoblock and is not restricted to the Silvia & Gaggia. Its not a "steam issue" or an equipment issue...its what happens when operators dont take due care ie do not use the proper established technique when operating coffee machines that have boilers and that dont have an auto fill function....ergo, it is an "operator issue".
Yes in total agreement, the good result doesnt come through just buying the machine, the operator has to work for it, and the good thing about doing that is that once an operator has mastered the Silvia ( and even the Gaggia), they are very well prepared to taking the next (and more expensive) step to owning
a good semi commercial HX machine and making even better coffee
Rgdz,
Attilio
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
Originally posted by 536770667D4A567A73737070150 link=1309353436/24#24 date=1309566165I have never found steam to be an issue with any silvia....Originally posted by 536770667D4A567A73737070150 link=1309353436/24#24 date=1309566165exceptThe silva is an excellent machine (and I lust after my brother-in-laws)but I was just trying to say its not magic and god shots and latte art dont just come with spending the extra cash (as with all upgrades).Originally posted by 536770667D4A567A73737070150 link=1309353436/24#24 date=1309566165water level is run down to a point where the element blows
my main point was a good grinder will make more of a difference
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
Anyone that wants to improve from any "regular" domestic machine (read here one that uses smaller filters than commercial size), has to start somewhere and may I suggest that "somewhere" is at the very minimum, with another domestic machine that does use regular commercial filters. There are less than a handful and both the gaggia and silvia are in that category.
Why commercial size (or 58mm filters)? Because they are bigger than regular domestic size and give you a coffee with more coffee oils disolved per ml of brewing water, resulting in coffee with greater body if nothing else, and approaching commercial style.
It is only my opinion but just the difference in the resulting brew, between a silvia and the multitude of lesser domestics on the market with their smaller filters, lighter overall weight and lesser ease and convenience of use, is deserving of the upgrade.
All silvias including early models work just fine and dont *need* mods to work well. There is a difference between wanting to mod, and needing to mod, and the best pid I know of is inside everyones head.
If you had to choose between any silvia and any gaggia (domestic) you would be mad not to take the silvia even if for no other reason than the corrosion and blockage problems associated with machines that employ aluminium boilers. I understand the new gaggias may (or may not) have stainless steel liners, but certianly all the older models did not. Further, only an individual can decide whether they are happy to drink the coffee made with a machine that uses an aluminium boiler even when it is working properly.
Yes used silvia prices are high, but you can also surmise that it is justifiably so.
I have never found steam to be an issue with any silvia except if the machine was faulty, and I also had no problem with the original non ball jointed steam arm although its short length could be described as being inconvenient in use. Silvia has a bigger steam capacity than any other regular domestic, notwithstanding it is really only meant to be used to steam enough milk for 2 std cappuccino (say 600ml jug) after which the boiler should be reprimed before the next operation lest the water level is run down to a point where the element blows. Yes it will do more without repriming, but the operator takes the risk in the event of a blown element.
All machines require "temperature surfing" so I cant see how that becomes any more of an "issue" with silvia.
All of this is said with absolutely no commercial interest at all as Damien says he is not going to buy a new machine...the question being, is he going to end up with a "better" machine with noticeable difference and therefore a worthwhile "upgrade"....others may disagree but I think....yes.
Rgdz,
Attilio
very first CS site sponsor
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
not sure were this is from many CSs using classics well over 10 years oldOriginally posted by 5F5A56525E55530C3B0 link=1309353436/18#18 date=1309495178but it was described as a machine to "learn on it for a couple of years, then offload it before it starts to develop issues"
Dont get me wrong if I was offered a free silva or a free classic I would go for the silva.
Just a note of caution there are lot of threads about silva mods etc to try to improve it consistency.
It is without a doubt a class leader but will you see the level of improvement you want to see for the investment? after all, the hype(?) associated with the silva means second hand prices are high
Steam is still an issue on silva especially with the old steam wand and requires temp surfing which something that I think you can do on the ikon as it a boiler machine.
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
You are correct, however unlike many offerings in and around its class, it is boiler rather than thermoblock. From what Ive read, some experienced and knowledgeable CSers familiar with it seem to think it an ok unit, particularly for the money - this is advice I based my purchase on.Originally posted by 6F5B4C5A41766A464F4F4C4C290 link=1309353436/20#20 date=1309498750I just took a look at an internet photo of an Ikon. Looks pretty much like a small end domestic to me but someone please correct me if I am wrong and I will happily retract.
On a good day I can get pretty good results, but Ive made the assumption that a machine such as the Silvia will provide two key things:
- Improved consistency in the cup
- Longevity (life of the machine, due to build quality)
edit: and probably add better steam as a third... my wife and I currently drink milk based drinks almost exclusively.
Alas budget doesnt allow me to consider new at this stage, but I do appreciate the offer.
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
The quality of the pf and group head is the point. Pick up the pf on the Ikon and compare it to the Silvia and the Ikon pf will feel like a kids toy. That difference in construction quality would go for most aspects of the machine.Originally posted by 62742867286C28766F656D63746F6861060 link=1309353436/15#15 date=1309493927but what difference do those make at this level, the 58mm pf is only convenient to use other accessories upgrades
Originally posted by 526F6B6B7F060 link=1309353436/12#12 date=1309413130I think the Silvia would be a fair upgrade from the Ikon. The group and 58mm pf on the Silvia are far better quality and I dont think the Ikon has a 3 way valve. There are a few obvious advantages the Silvia has. A really shallow drip tray may not be one.
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
I am not familiar with the Ikon but I understand it uses domestic size coffee filters.
Moving to a machine that uses 58 mm / commercial size coffee filters if nothing else, results in wet coffee being brewed with commercial size portion / dose of grinds and results in a better wet coffee, or a wet coffee more approaching one made with commercial size equipment...that which a domestic type machine would otherwise never be able to do simply because the dose of grinds is smaller per cup of coffee.....
After that yes, you can in addition, buy various accessories for standard 58mm group handles and filters that you cannot get for domestic size equipment....
I just took a look at an internet photo of an Ikon. Looks pretty much like a small end domestic to me but someone please correct me if I am wrong and I will happily retract. If so, the difference in quality in the coffee produced between the Ikon and the Silvia, in the hands of a competent home barista, will be like chalk and cheese and I know which one I would Druther
I also of course have the advantage of being a direct importer of the Silvia Damien, so if you want to talk and buy a new one then I will be happy to talk back...off line.
Rgdz,
Attilio
very first CS site sponsor
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
I might be wrong, but Id imagine that changing the surface area diameter, and therefore depth of basket/grinds would have an impact on the extraction... Considering 58mm is the standard, Im going to take a wild stab and guess that any difference in the cup (if there is any) is NOT going to be in the favour of the smaller diameter pfs!Originally posted by 34227E317E3A7E2039333B3522393E37500 link=1309353436/15#15 date=130949392758mm pf is only convenient to use other accessories upgrades
Thanks again for your thoughts.
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
Thanks for all the input, Doc.Originally posted by 2B3D612E6125613F262C242A3D2621284F0 link=1309353436/16#16 date=1309494077btw there are lots of gaggia classics that come up on that site! and they are boom proof and have the 58mm pf and better drip try
mine is over 10 years old and going strong
I had considered the Classic, and noticed it too had the 58mm pf (not that this is priority #1, of course). Cant remember where (perhaps the site recommended to me early on in this topic), but it was described as a machine to "learn on it for a couple of years, then offload it before it starts to develop issues", or something to that effect, which put me off buying one second hand. I think the boiler material and construction is a key difference.
The sheer number of users/recommenders of the Silvia indicates its a pretty safe bet. While I have the chance to pick up one at a good price I figure Ill give it strong consideration... the grinder upgrade will come either way in the not too distant future.
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
sorrybombOriginally posted by 2A3C602F6024603E272D252B3C2720294E0 link=1309353436/16#16 date=1309494077boom proof
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
btw there are lots of gaggia classics that come up on that site! and they are boom proof and have the 58mm pf and better drip try
mine is over 10 years old and going strong
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
but what difference do those make at this level, the 58mm pf is only convenient to use other accessories upgradesOriginally posted by 1E232727334A0 link=1309353436/12#12 date=1309413130I think the Silvia would be a fair upgrade from the Ikon. The group and 58mm pf on the Silvia are far better quality and I dont think the Ikon has a 3 way valve. There are a few obvious advantages the Silvia has. A really shallow drip tray may not be one.
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Re: Risks buying Silvia second hand?
I think you may be surprised how much of an improvement the smart grinder is over the em0480, why dont you do it stepwise up grade the grinder first see how much better the coffee is and if still looking for more improvment (which by the way you will as you now have upgradeitis) and then look around at the machine options.
The silva will need a better grinder than em0480 to improve on the ikons performance anyway
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