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Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

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  • Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

    After fitting a PID to my Silvia Ive been thinking what the pros & cons of insulating the boiler would be. The only information I can find is from Pidsilvia.com and as they are selling the product its all positive. Has anyone insulated a Silvia? and if so is it worth doing?

  • #2
    Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

    Definitely worth doing when a PID Controller has been installed.... 8-) Its not recommended for standard (t/stat controlled) Silvias though, as the insulation will create a number of headaches with operation, due to the wide deadband of the t/stats usually fitted.

    With an insulated Boiler, it will become a much more stable machine and improve the overall longevity of electrical and electronic components, including the wiring. Heat is the enemy of all of this so any reduction will be beneficial. You will lose the side-effect of a cup warming tray though; heating cups with Boiler water or via some other method will have to be employed.

    You also need to make sure that you insulate the top of the Boiler too, not just around the cylinder. Most of the heat loss is from the top but Ive noticed that a lot of people dont seem to worry about doing it because of the complexity created by the pipework, wiring and other devices. It doesnt take all that much effort to make a template and then cut the insulation out to suit...

    All the best,
    Mal.

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    • #3
      Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

      Thanks for the info Mal I just wasnt sure if insulating the boiler would have an effect on the grouphead but I guess after warming the cup through the grouphead (cup warming solved) it will be pick up heat.
      Also noticed they insulated around the grouphead & pipes with 1/8" silicon foam with 1/4" around the boiler.
      Is there anywhere in Perth or Australia that sells silicon foam or is Pidsilvia.com prices the going rate for this material? Is there an alternative that can handle the heat and available locally?

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      • #4
        Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

        Gday Rocky,
        There are a number of options for insulation, some expensive, some cheap, some safe, some not.
        A search here for "boiler insulation" should give lots of information.
        I decided to use the "InsulBrite" and its still fine after 18 months. Heres the thread for the work I did: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1258726137/0
        Greg

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        • #5
          Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

          Great work Greg it looks so neat Im going to look into that this week.
          I left out one of the reasons I want to insulate the boiler is so I can move the PID inside the machine just above the steam knob. The insulation I think would be necessary to keep the temperature down inside the housing. I was also thinking of boring some neat holes on the RH side to ventilate this would not look out of place as the tray has holes on the same side.

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          • #6
            Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

            I have the insulation from the site you posted. It does work well and I can actually touch the boiler without it being hot.

            I did this to install my PID internally as well, measured the internal temps with the insulation installed and it seems to be around 50-60 degrees with steam on.
            With the internal PID I also used the steel box that was used to mount it external and some additional insulation around the box to help keep it from getting too warm as the max operating temp is 50 degrees for the PID.

            However it seems the pidsilvia site offers internal kits and they are rated for 50 degrees too, I asked them and they dont seem to have a problem with the PIDs running internally as is. 

            My next mod is to place some rubber grommets under the screws of the top panel to allow some gap for the warm air to escape. As much as I could add holes into the side of my Silvia I prefer not.

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            • #7
              Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

              Will the PID need reprogramming after installing insulation?

              The Auber PIDs are set to overshoot a little then come back to temp right? Will this take longer if the boilers insulated?

              Joe

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              • #8
                Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

                PID is designed to get to correct temperature and stay there. It predicts how much energy is need to keep temp stable even it varies. Adding insulation will have no effect on PID settings, it will just need less energy to get same temp. will be no harm to run auto tune after you install insulation to see if there are any changes, but I doubt there be much difference, boiler capacity and heating power and set temp will be the main factors.

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                • #9
                  Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

                  I understand your point Firepower, and Im not an engineer, so Im sure others can easily correct me if Im way off base here, but I was led to believe that insulating small PIDd boilers could lead to less responsive machines and longer recovery time.

                  If you insulate the boiler, you cant afford to let the temp overshoot, because it will take ages to drop back down to correct temp. This means VERY conservative PID settings and a machine that is less responsive.

                  An example is the DB Izzo Alex Duetto, where they insulate the steam boiler, but leave the brew boiler uninsulated.

                  Again, I could be very wrong, not trying to start an argument, just curious.

                  Joe

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                  • #10
                    Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

                    Originally posted by 0E2B2107440 link=1309610800/8#8 date=1309858891
                    I understand your point Firepower, and Im not an engineer, so Im sure others can easily correct me if Im way off base here, but I was led to believe that insulating small PIDd boilers could lead to less responsive machines and longer recovery time.
                    This assumption is incorrect Joe. Responsiveness is entirely a function of mass versus Input minus Losses. The insulation will add to stability and responsiveness will be improved since losses have less of an impact.

                    Originally posted by 0E2B2107440 link=1309610800/8#8 date=1309858891
                    If you insulate the boiler, you cant afford to let the temp overshoot, because it will take ages to drop back down to correct temp. This means VERY conservative PID settings and a machine that is less responsive.
                    After insulating the Boiler, it may be a good idea to re-run the Auto-Tune function or closely monitor for changes in performance and adjust PID parameters accordingly, if required. The sorts of overshoot mentioned by Kevin would be small and also immediately soaked up by cooler metalwork. Equilibrium would be attained very quickly. Your concerns are really groundless.

                    Any changes to parameters would be quite small in my opinion, if even needed and will vary from one PID Controller design to another so blanket statements of this kind are really meaningless.

                    Originally posted by 0E2B2107440 link=1309610800/8#8 date=1309858891
                    An example is the DB Izzo Alex Duetto, where they insulate the steam boiler, but leave the brew boiler uninsulated.
                    One doesnt have anything to do with the other as a matter of fact. In the case of my Dual Boiler machine, the Brew Boiler is insulated and the steam Boiler not so.

                    It comes down to individual designers experiences and perceptions, as much as any basic engineering criteria.

                    Originally posted by 0E2B2107440 link=1309610800/8#8 date=1309858891
                    Again, I could be very wrong, not trying to start an argument, just curious.
                    In this instance, Im afraid you are wrong Joe.

                    There are many webpages around, that go into considerable detail over design issues with regard to Process Control and the underlying Physics involved, and I would recommend that you Google for them. This is not really the forum to start a discussion into the detailed engineering involved as most people would consider it too geeky Id reckon.....

                    Mal.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

                      Originally posted by 45686C606D010 link=1309610800/9#9 date=1309874768
                      In this instance, Im afraid you are wrong Joe.

                      There are many webpages around, that go into considerable detail over design issues with regard to Process Control and the underlying Physics involved, and I would recommend that you Google for them. This is not really the forum to start a discussion into the detailed engineering involved as most people would consider it too geeky Id reckon.....

                      Mal.
                      More than OK with being wrong, and glad to learn something useful. Thanks for taking the time Mal.

                      Joe

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                      • #12
                        Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

                        No worries mate....

                        Mal.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

                          I have done a few Mods to my Silvia i.e. the one you are proposing and I have found it has made a pleasurable difference. The insulation around the group head especially.

                          Be warned though.. its tricky!

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                          • #14
                            Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

                            Edit. I had to remove the insulation from the top section of the steam pipe as clearance was an issue. So now I have only insulated the steam pipes lower half.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Silvia - Boiler insulation Pros & Cons

                              This mornings proof lol!





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