EM6910 v Silvia v the world!

[TC]

Re: Advice needed

Willow- DiBartoli in Bondi Junction (CS sponsor) do the Silvia/Rocky. We are also happy to supply to Syndey and have a reciprocal service arrangement for equipment in Sydney.

regards

Chris

[barri]

Re: Advice needed

Here we go again. The 6910 vs Silvia debate. Willow, I suggest you read the threads discussing the plus and minuses of these two machines. As far as Im concerned the saving of $150 buying the 6910 is definitely worth it and I personally think resale value of machines at this price is irrelevant. One of the members on this site is a professional barista who has owned both and prefers the 6910. He really is in a better position than any of us to compare both machines.

[ozscott]

Re: Advice needed

The steam is very good once you adjust the steam temp up fully and the pump recovery time down - ie the thread on the EM6910. You will all see that Wushoes has compared it favourably now to the Silvia - almost as good for steam which combined with simultaneous steaming means better in practical terms for milk coffees and no recovery time at all.

As for shot taste, I will leave that to you guys to compare directly to miss Silvia. Can I say a couple of things though. Chris must be a Silvia expert - all machines have their quirks and he must know the absolute best way to get the best out of it. He is a Sunbeam novice it seems, and as such a relatively short comparo between the machines may not bring out a best versus best shot.

The Sunbeam benefits very much from filling the double, spreading it with the little finger (no banging at all) and then filling over (ie about 1.5 cm over as a volcano shape) and then tamping once and finishing with a twist (me using Pulmans gear). I get the same shot, with almost identical characteristics and extraction pressure, every time using this. The Rocky is rarely changed using my preferred coffee which is a not long roasted Merlo Private. With some home roasted I do make minor adjustments. If you are having a taste off again, and in Brisbane, I alongwith others owners up here, I suspect, would be happy to attend and lend a hand to you professional guys with this particular machine. Like all proper espresso machines is requires some use to get the best out of it.

Cheers

[ozscott]

Re: EM6910 v The World

...oh and check the comments on the thread that you were referred to by Chris - the outstanding results from the Silvia have to be viewed in the scope of long heat up time (get up and get it coffee might be not quite as quick as most would like) and quirks that require ongoing mucking around - if that is not the case why are the PID kits for the Silvia so popular?

[TC]

Re: Melbourne Advanced Home Espresso Session

Yes Scott- I have had just a day on the Sunbeam...and Like Paul Bassett, Luca and I used the accepted dose and collapse method with it and also cranked the group head temp to max in an attempt to eliminate sourness- without success.

I stand by my comments that you need to jam the thing with coffee to get an acceptable shot- which is essentially just a ristretto pour (aka copout to attempt to mask that sourness). Luca and I have very broad experience on a very wide range of machines- from Krups to Synesso. We both tried and still got sourness...

I still dont like to Sunbeam and for that matter, thermoblocks of any description- no matter how full of electronics they are.

IMHO- eBay provides a good gauge on machines....Its full of heartbreak at the lower price end....and of Sunbeams for that matter.

Yes, a Silvia will take longer to warm up, but I can get a better shot out of a Silvia with a little effort than I can out of a Sunbeam- no matter how hard I try.

I throw out the challenge to any Sunbeam and Silvia owners in Melbourne. Lets do a shootout and blind cupping of Silvia shots v Sunbeam shots at First Pour (perhaps at the next Beanbay day) and put this to rest using some real palates....Then we could come back in 5 years and see what remains of either machine .

[luca]

Re: Advice needed

Punchline is that as much as we wanted to like the Sunbeam, both Luca and I were still not impressed with the espresso.

Hi Chris,

I thought that I should add a bit of a postscript to this. The espresso from the 6910 had the same sourness that I had previously experienced from some brief use of the 6900, so I assumed that it was the machine. However, the owner recently told me that he had run some cleaning product through the reservoir in preparation for the session. The flavour taint was so similar between the 6900 and the 6910 that I still suspect that there was something at fault with the machine, but Id like everyone to have the right information.

Chris must be a Silvia expert - all machines have their quirks and he must know the absolute best way to get the best out of it. He is a Sunbeam novice it seems, and as such a relatively short comparo between the machines may not bring out a best versus best shot.

The comparisons were in the context of Chris advanced espresso course, where we used a few different blends and experimented to get the best that we could out of the machine over a period of several hours, with a whole spectrum of domestic through semi commercial through commercial machines for comparison. The sour taint was present, to varying degrees, no matter how the variables (temperature, blend, dose, grind) were tweaked. By comparison, I gave one of the prosumer machine users some coffee that I had roasted lightly and, so, had an inherent sourness to it, which he was able to minimise somewhat, and shots pulled with that had a sourness to them that other blends did not have. So although the comparison was short, I think that it was quite comprehensive and that its a pretty inescapable conclusion that something inherent to the machine was causing a sour taint. However, (a) the possibility has emerged that this might have been a taint due to cleaning products and (b) even if it was down to that particular machine itself, there is a chance - Ill leave it to yall to work out how slim, in light of the 69XX series track record - that there was something wrong with that particular machine rather than the whole series.

the outstanding results from the Silvia have to be viewed in the scope of long heat up time (get up and get it coffee might be not quite as quick as most would like) and quirks that require ongoing mucking around - if that is not the case why are the PID kits for the Silvia so popular?

Certainly true. There is a wealth of information on the silvia all over the internet and it is for prospective silvia buyers to work out how much of a big deal to them the "mucking around" is. Personally, I think that most of my frustrations with my rancilio set were from the rocky than the silvia - when I used a mazzer with it, things were a lot easier.

As for heat up times, I ran my silvia on a timer. Who wants to have to turn the machine on and wait in the morning?

As for grinders, the Iberital is accurate and excellent, but very noisy unit. In addition its slooooow to adjust- a nuisance if you need to knock out some plunger grind. I suspect a Rocky would win the longevity race hands down....

I liken the noise to a vacuum cleaner! I remember that Greg Kaan got a sound meter and measured a bunch of different grinders. Surprisingly, the lux, which sounds similar to the iberital, puts out the same number of decibels as a rocky. However, the pitch is a lot higher. Bottom line; who cares - noisier is noisier.

As Chris said, its a tradeoff - you get durability, relative quietness and ease of changing between the espresso zone and the french press zone with the rocky. With the iberital, you get much more accurate grind adjustment and excellent grind quality.

Hope thats helpful,

Luca

[grendel]

Re: Melbourne Advanced Home Espresso Session

I know you wouldnt sell the machine unless it was a good piece of tackle - but how does the Unico Splendor stack up against others in its price range?

[barri]

Re: Melbourne Advanced Home Espresso Session

Yes Scott- I have had just a day on the Sunbeam...and Like Paul Bassett, Luca and I used the accepted dose and collapse method with it and also cranked the group head temp to max in an attempt to eliminate sourness- without success.

I stand by my comments that you need to jam the thing with coffee to get an acceptable shot- which is essentially just a ristretto pour (aka copout to attempt to mask that sourness). Luca and I have very broad experience on a very wide range of machines- from Krups to Synesso. We both tried and still got sourness...

I still dont like to Sunbeam and for that matter, thermoblocks of any description- no matter how full of electronics they are.

IMHO- eBay provides a good gauge on machines....Its full of heartbreak at the lower price end....and of Sunbeams for that matter.

Yes, a Silvia will take longer to warm up, but I can get a better shot out of a Silvia with a little effort than I can out of a Sunbeam- no matter how hard I try.

I throw out the challenge to any Sunbeam and Silvia owners in Melbourne. Lets do a shootout and blind cupping of Silvia shots v Sunbeam shots at First Pour (perhaps at the next Beanbay day) and put this to rest using some real palates....Then we could come back in 5 years and see what remains of either machine .

Even easier, just ask wushoes!!

[ozscott]

Re: EM6910 v the world!

Thanks for that roundup Luca. I cleaned my 6910 today and one thing that Sunbeam says to do is run a whole res through the machine after the chem clean - that is a long process - 4 litres or so- and I wonder if the guy who cleaned the machine did that.

Again - the question of nuance between machines is lost in the translation to a milk based coffee....so for me and most people who drink flat whites etc there is not taste difference, if any does exist.

Cheers again.

[JavaB]

Re: Melbourne Advanced Home Espresso Session

I stand by my comments that you need to jam the thing with coffee to get an acceptable shot- which is essentially just a ristretto pour (aka copout to attempt to mask that sourness). Luca and I have very broad experience on a very wide range of machines- from Krups to Synesso. We both tried and still got sourness...

I suspect that is why Paul Bassett included such large baskets in the original design and these were shipped with the 6900 - the machine was originally designed for people like we CoffeeSnobs - and the assumption was made that they would want to overdose to get the best possible extraction (and would be happy so to do)..... however far more sales of the machine were made than expected - several times more!! (comment made by a Sunbeam engineering member)...... and that was into the mum and dad coffee makers - who want to use supermarket coffee (so they have included pressurised baskets)...

There was also an increased number of purchasers / potential purchasers who were unhappy about the cost of using "so much coffee" (those who try to use single baskets rather than use a double - and discard half) and those users didnt want to use the 20+ grams required for the larger baskets. So Sunbeam now provide normal sized baskets rather than the ones Paul designed.....

Both the pressurised baskets and smaller "normal" baskets are no doubt a marketing driven decision....... based on the quantity of potential sales rather than one relating to the quality of the product produced....

[grendel]

Re: EM6910 v the world!

The Iberital is indeed a very noisy beast - fond of it as I am. I will be starting to experiment with some noise minimisation mods.

[TC]

Re: EM6910 v the world!

The Iberital is indeed a very noisy beast - fond of it as I am. I will be starting to experiment with some noise minimisation mods.

Id recommend caution Grendel, your warranty will not cover any user modification to the unit unless its a pair of earplugs

2mcm

[JavaB]

Re: EM6910 v the world!

The Iberital is indeed a very noisy beast - fond of it as I am. I will be starting to experiment with some noise minimisation mods.

grendel,

I dont think it would be any worse than the La Cimbali...... sounds like a 747 revving up before take off..... (has the advantage of getting guests out of the kitchen when I start grinding ;D)

Just something we have to put up with I guess!!

[Dimal]

Re: EM6910 v the world!

sounds like a 747 revving up before take off.....

Gotta love those great big gas turbines though

Mal.

[Wushoes]

Re: EM6910 v the world!

I will tend to agree with Luca and Chris that the shots from the EM6910 come out sour....I have bumped up the brew temp to help things.