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  • PIDd Botticelli

    interesting project... with great shot-results!

    PID is sitting on the cup warmer, attached with velcro so the top plate can be taken off easily.
    PID-ing a Bott has a barb in it: the power switch is a bugger to work with.... but it is  all overcomeable with patience and appropriate knowledge. (edit: and the back-up of the knowledgable support-team!!)
    The SSR is sitting in the top of the Bott, not in the bottom as in most Silvia mods; this allowed for a relatively "dis-assemble free" modification, as only the top plate had to come off, and later on the bottom cover for about 3 minutes.
    i can post pics of the "innards" if anyone is interested.

    L



  • #2
    Re: PIDd Botticelli

    pic 2

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    • #3
      Re: PIDd Botticelli

      Id have to agree- welcome to the PIDed Botticelli club Lizzi- lovely sweet espresso, lots of steam.
      Brett

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      • #4
        Re: PIDd Botticelli

        yes, Brett, and thanks for your help...
        you were right when you said the Bott was running too hot before... i was managing that with copious flushing (and emptying the tray, refilling the tank...)
        when i installed the PID and ran the Bott on the default SV of 109C it was programmed to, the coffee tasted very similar to teh extractions i was getting before i started fushing "big time".
        now the SV is 102 and the coffee is sweet, no hint of bitter.
        i think this machine and i will get along very fine for quite a few years...

        and a big "thank you" to site-sponsor Jim Gallt, (www.PIDKits.com) whose PID kit i used... the way the kit is put together, the clarity of the instructions and Jims willingness to be on tap makes this type of modification a viable option.
        the installation passed the professional once-over with flying colours!

        Disclaimer:  the fact that i have decided to do this modification does not infer in any way that i encourage anyone else to tinker with their coffee machine or the like without the necessary qualifications or professional support for final electrical safety validation.

        L



        edit: Jim Gallts website details...

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        • #5
          Re: PIDd Botticelli

          Wonderful effort there Lizzi,

          Youll have to let us know what your "before and after" impressions are when cupping some of your favourite coffees... I know Brett is very impressed with his ,

          Mal.

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          • #6
            Re: PIDd Botticelli

            Originally posted by Mal link=1186037251/0#4 date=1186075266
            Wonderful effort there Lizzi,

            Youll have to let us know what your "before and after"  impressions are when cupping some of your favourite coffees... I know Brett is very impressed with his ,

            Mal.
            Thats right, Mal- the question is whether someone with a PIDed machine of the quality and capability of the Botticelli can resist upgraditis!

            If it were only me and not a house full of people wanting such things as hot water on demand, then the Bott and Cunill would be alone on my bench.

            And Lizzi, you are more than welcome to the help- such help to a genuinely interested and capable person like yourself is always a pleasure!

            Brett

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            • #7
              Re: PIDd Botticelli

              such help to a genuinely interested and capable person like yourself
              :-[ ...deep blush, hiding under the coffee table... :-[

              genuinely interested??? absolutely!

              Capable? :-? :-? That really depends on the day of the month ( :P) and the quality & availability of my supply/back-up team!!
              there is many a project which has morphed into something completely different,  because.... well,  just because!!
              and, there is  always the "round filing cabinet" ...

              Youll have to let us know what your "before and after"  impressions are when cupping some of your favourite coffees
              Mal,
              the difference in the stability of the "essence" of the coffee is amazing.
              if we assume that my grind/dose/tamp is fairly consistent:....whereas before the balance/character of the shot depended on my skill/willingness to play with the flush/shot timing, it is now a matter of looking at the display and getting bang-on coffee.

              i have tried shots at temps from 100 to 109, and find that the 102 SV is the best for the coffees i am using at the moment, a SO blend of Monsooned Peaberry, as well as a blend of Sidhamo/Monte Carmello.
              for the SO Sidhamo i think it needs to go down a fraction, but that may be my imagination; i havent had a lot of African SOs, so am a newby in their flavour department.
              The Margopype has, compared to the "before PID " shots, all of a sudden developed a "perfume", a floral, cinnamon/cardamom -hint note.

              in regards to the "upgraditis"... nope, havent seen another unit i like.. the clean, tall and slender lines of the Bott are very appealing (thanks, Chris... )
              The PID on the cupwarmer doesnt detract from the design, it is unobtrusive.
              the only added feature i could be looking for in the future would be volumetric control.... but i dont see a need for it at the moment, if ever...

              I is happy with my coffee"cart".... ;D ;D

              L







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              • #8
                Re: PIDd Botticelli

                Originally posted by Lizzi link=1186037251/0#6 date=1186119175
                in regards to the "upgraditis"... nope, havent seen another unit i like.. the clean, tall and slender lines of the Bott are very appealing (thanks, Chris... )
                The PID on the cupwarmer doesnt detract from the design, it is unobtrusive.
                the only added feature i could be looking for in the future would be volumetric control.... but i dont see a need for it at the moment, if ever...
                Sounds like you are reaping the rewards for your efforts almost immediately Lizzi, the PID mod on dual purpose/single boiler machines like the Bott is one definitely worth doing. Your "coffee-cart" line-up is looking very impressive too, cant imagine a much better one 8-).

                Do you have the controller box sitting directly on the Botts top cover Lizzi or have little rubber feet to protect the finish? I had my controller sitting on top of the Mokita as well with some rubber cushioning material under the controller box to protect the Mokitas finish..... as a result, not a single blemish so its worth doing. Gotta keep the hardware in tip-top shape havent we ;D?

                Mal.

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                • #9
                  Re: PIDd Botticelli

                  Mal, i used the Velcro pads which came with the kit... and to do the mod the way i wanted, i had to grind out a small rectangle fom the top plate, 10mmx5mm on the left edge of the top plate, looking at the Bott.

                  if i , or whoever, want to take the PID off, (although i wouldnt know why... :-/) the cut-out would almost disappear under the plastic cup warmer guard.

                  L

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                  • #10
                    Re: PIDd Botticelli

                    can i ask the "electronics" genii to help me out here, please?

                    to supply us with power "off site" we have a 2400W modified sine-wave inverter/charger on board.

                    we have found that electronically controlled devices (fans, alarm clocks, breadmakers) generally dont like the input of the inverter...unless they have an inbuilt transformer such as our LCD TV , DVD recorder etc.
                    therefore we turn off/unplug all not-compatible equipement when off-site.

                    having PIDed the Bott... how would the SSR/PID respond to modified sine-wave?
                    i have my suspicions...


                    thoughts please? :-/

                    L

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                    • #11
                      Re: PIDd Botticelli

                      Lizzi....

                      Thats a difficult one as not all modified sinewave inverters are created equal. The output starts off life as a square wave.... often with spikes.... and has the corners lopped off to generate something slightly like a sine wave....

                      Switching mode power supply equipped devices should be able to handle this OK.... but if there are still spikes etc coming down the line.... these rapid transients dont get through the transformer type power supplies (or if they do - they are considerably attenuated).

                      On a switching mode powersupply the peak voltage charges the input capacitors to the peak voltage.... fine if it is a sinewave... but can be really nasty if the input is spikey....

                      So the answer is a definite "maybe"....

                      And thats a lot of help I know : :

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                      • #12
                        Re: PIDd Botticelli

                        JB, it is a Trace DR2424 form Xantrex... if that is any help? i think the specs are online....

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                        • #13
                          Re: PIDd Botticelli

                          Hi Lizzi,

                          Everything JB has explained is spot-on. One way to overcome the vagaries of running susceptible appliances from a pseudo-sine wave inverter, is to connect in a downstream power conditioner of suitable rating to the output of the inverter. These power conditioners operate on what are called "Ferro-Resonant" principles and as such, are quite heavy devices and must generally be mounted on the floor. Ive occasionally seen used examples up for sale on evilbay for reasonable sums so this might be one way to overcome the inverters dirty output. All the best,

                          Mal.

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                          • #14
                            Re: PIDd Botticelli

                            thanks JB and Mal for the great info, as usual...

                            naturally we dont normally run the Bott off the inverter... that would be flogging the batteries just a tad too much!! ;D
                            as soon as we disconnect land-supply, all electronic gear without "transofrmer" and "heavy draw" electrical gear gets switched off/unplugged .

                            the whole "inverter vs electronics" issue only comes into play when we are on-site somewhere and the power coming into the bus is not good enough (dodgy caravan park power...) or disappears altogether, as in a power failure.
                            the inverter then "takes over" and although we dont realise it, the bus runs on batteries, until the inverter decides that the incoming power is OK again...and this can be a few minutes, or a few hours.
                            in the evening, a slight dimming of the light indicates a power switch, but during the day it is near impossible to pick when the power has been switched, apart from a slight buzz coming from the inverter which is only audible when you are up-close to the inverter under the bus.

                            these are the times when stuff like an alarm clock or fan can be at risk.
                            and, now, also the Bott.
                            so, matter of keeping an eye/ear out for power changes when making coffee, and not leaving the Bott on...

                            ill keep an eye out for power-conditioners... heavy things, eh? might have to dump some beans then....hmmmm....

                            L

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                            • #15
                              Re: PIDd Botticelli

                              Lizzie...

                              And Mals advice is the best solution. (Mal and I make a great "tag team" on the hard ones..... a mutual admiration society ;D ;D).

                              The inverter could be working perfectly (and specs dont help a lot) as the nature of the waveform produced is load sensitive...

                              Put something highly inductive (say a big transformer or motor) and the rapidly changing waveform from the inverter reacts with the inductive component of the load... and the component produces the spike.... not necessarily the inverters fault.... but a combined effect..... and this will vary dependent on the load.... so filtering the output (or a smaller filter on the input to sensitive equipment) will kill the problem.....

                              Other than that you would have to observe the waveform on a CRO (cathode ray oscilloscope) under varying load conditions to establish what combinations are safe - and what arent....

                              Now Ive probably totally confused you :-/..... but as Mal said you need a power conditioner.... at least for sensitive equipment.... its the only practical answer. (More weight in the bus )

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