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  • nutfarmer
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Richard,
    Good tip, I have been practising the finger method more and think that is helping with the tamp; although it does heat up the fingers a little.

    Leave a comment:


  • nutfarmer
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Originally posted by 203B313A332036333E333033520 link=1211074648/35#35 date=1307605133
    Im curious to know if those snobs who have the uneven pour problem rotate the tamper as part of their routine. It seems to me that a quarter turn of the tamper, with thumb and forefinger on the rim of the basket, tells you if the tamper (and the bean surface) is dead flat. Just a thought.......
    Yes I try to gauge the depth that way, probably needs some practice.

    I did some extractions with uneven tamp and some with even tamp and didnt notice any impact on the division.
    Once the machine was levelled the flow seemed to divided equally regardless of the tamp.

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  • richardalaba
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Im curious to know if those snobs who have the uneven pour problem rotate the tamper as part of their routine. It seems to me that a quarter turn of the tamper, with thumb and forefinger on the rim of the basket, tells you if the tamper (and the bean surface) is dead flat. Just a thought.......

    Leave a comment:


  • det
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Thanks Mal, Yes, in my haste to respond  I didnt finish that sentence. What I intended to say was "...Viola wont be happy with her coffee." Apologies if I misled anyone.

    Leave a comment:


  • nutfarmer
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Originally posted by 6D6C7D090 link=1211074648/31#31 date=1307411586
    Have a Silvia have had the same problem.

    Not all the time though so logically it must be operator input as other posters have mentioned i.e. even distribution of the grounds in the basket and eveness of tamp pressure and level.

    The hardest thing to change is our habitual technique.

    The water takes the path of least resistance through the grounds (chanelling) so if the above is not correct and consistent viola.

    Like a golf swing, when the planets align its "ping" when they dont....well. The clubs remain constant though.
    Thanks for the comments, yes it could be technique.
    I find that now I have the feet packed higher on the rhs I get a reasonably consistent and even division.
    Earlier in the thread it was suggested that replacing the divider with a different design fixed the problem so that points to the design as a factor.
    The other argument was that the surface tension could cause extract to move to one side and influence the division. It would have to move about 4 mm horizontally, and if it could do that then wouldnt it be more likely to move horizontally along the bottom side of the filter cup? The filter cup slopes a bit to the middle so you would think if surface tension is going to show up anywhere it would be there.

    Anyway, from the design as shown, it is just hard to understand how unevenness in the tamp can influence the division.


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  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Originally posted by 212031450 link=1211074648/31#31 date=1307411586
    The water takes the path of least resistance through the grounds (chanelling) so if the above is not correct and consistent viola.
    My Oma (Grandmother) used to play one of these, among other instruments in her repertoire of talents....

    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • det
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Have a Silvia have had the same problem.

    Not all the time though so logically it must be operator input as other posters have mentioned i.e. even distribution of the grounds in the basket and eveness of tamp pressure and level.

    The hardest thing to change is our habitual technique.

    The water takes the path of least resistance through the grounds (chanelling) so if the above is not correct and consistent viola.

    Like a golf swing, when the planets align its "ping" when they dont....well. The clubs remain constant though.

    Leave a comment:


  • nutfarmer
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    I have played with the tamp and think I have it reasonably level. It is easy to tell by the line in the filter cup. The flow is still more on the rhs.
    I think the flat sections on the divider have to be exactly level and you may not be able to tell that by checking the level at the bottom of the outlet spouts, as these are just cast unlike the flat sections which are machined.
    I have now fitted felt feet to the rhs and that seems to do the job.

    I did up a rough diagram which gives an idea of how much the wider the well is than the funnel and how uneven the flow would have to be to influence the division.

    Leave a comment:


  • nutfarmer
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Originally posted by 5340465F535C320 link=1211074648/28#28 date=1306230914
    I had a similar problem (nemox machine) and when I made my PF naked, I could easily see my extraction being way lob sided.  I paid more attention to even grind distribution and tamping and now the extraction is much improved.

    I have found the naked PF very handy for diagnosing pours, as you can easily see channeling, uneven extraction (side to side or outside/inside), what is causing early blonding etc

    Cheers
    Okay I guess I just have to accept that is what happens and take a close look at the tamp.

    Cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • artman
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    I had a similar problem (nemox machine) and when I made my PF naked, I could easily see my extraction being way lob sided. I paid more attention to even grind distribution and tamping and now the extraction is much improved.

    I have found the naked PF very handy for diagnosing pours, as you can easily see channeling, uneven extraction (side to side or outside/inside), what is causing early blonding etc

    Cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • nutfarmer
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    If the flow comes down one side of the bottom of the group handle, then it will go down one side of the hole and, for want of a better word, "stick" to the side of that hole and go out the spout on that side.



    Yes that is the obvious answer, but I have a lot of difficulty accepting it.

    Rancilio would have taken surface tension into account in the design.

    When you examine the hole at the bottom of the filter funnel you see it is a cylinder and separated from, and sitting inside, the divider cup. The bottom ring of this cylinder sits below the top edge of the divider cup.
    You can get a twist tie form it into a hook and feel that the there is a clear space between the cylinder and the cup of the divider.
    So the coffee would have to move around the bottom of the cylinder, then move back up the outside edge of the cylinder, then over the top and back down to the outlet hole.

    Clearly, even if it could do this (magic bullet) trick it would have already mixed with any coffee flowing down the other side of the filter funnel.

    Leave a comment:


  • trentski
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Originally posted by 0504034E0 link=1211074648/25#25 date=1306155832
    I cant understand how the heck this works - it is just down the one hole, then the flow divides!
    If the flow comes down one side of the bottom of the group handle, then it will go down one side of the hole and, for want of a better word, "stick" to the side of that hole and go out the spout on that side.

    The surface tension of the espresso, which is quite high, would enhance this behaviour.

    Think of it like pouring water out of a glass, often the water "sticks" to the side of th eglass and runs down it, rather than pouring gracefully from the lip and straight down.

    makes sense in my head

    Leave a comment:


  • KJM
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Originally posted by 544F4E5C5B48575F483A0 link=1211074648/24#24 date=1306122789
    I looked at the tamp and find it does make a difference but am rather perplexed as to why.
    All the coffee from the filter drains down into the hole in the bottom then it flows/drips into a well in the divider where it divides, so there should be no difference where it came from above.
    Looking closely at the well it seems to be about 2 mm deep at the middle and sloping up to the edges where there is a small step of about 0.2 mm in either side and then a flat run to the curving spouts on each side.
    I can imagine from that design that a change of 0.2 mm could make a difference as it matches the small step at each side.
    Perhaps adjustable feet would be a good idea. May try to get some of those stick on protectors that go under the feet and protect the bench top if I can find some the right thickness.
    Indeed. I cant understand how the heck this works - it is just down the one hole, then the flow divides! Things that are intuitively obvious, it seems, sometimes arent. Ive kind of accepted it, but Im not real happy - I want to know how.

    /Kevin

    Leave a comment:


  • nutfarmer
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Hey nutfarmer -

    Being an engineer - I thought levelness.  Nope.  Eventually I checked my tamping - lo and behold I was OK left to right but 180degrees from the PF handle, the tamp was high!  Fixed that, and the pour is perfectly - and I do mean perfectly even.


    *****
    Thanks for the reply,
    I have been doing some more checks on the levels. I found that the bench was a bit off level, but higher on the right which would only help even the flow.
    I am amazed at how little change is needed to alter the evenness only about 0.2 mm at the divider.

    I looked at the tamp and find it does make a difference but am rather perplexed as to why.
    All the coffee from the filter drains down into the hole in the bottom then it flows/drips into a well in the divider where it divides, so there should be no difference where it came from above.
    Looking closely at the well it seems to be about 2 mm deep at the middle and sloping up to the edges where there is a small step of about 0.2 mm in either side and then a flat run to the curving spouts on each side.
    I can imagine from that design that a change of 0.2 mm could make a difference as it matches the small step at each side.
    Perhaps adjustable feet would be a good idea. May try to get some of those stick on protectors that go under the feet and protect the bench top if I can find some the right thickness.



    Leave a comment:


  • KJM
    replied
    Re: Silvia uneven pour

    Hey nutfarmer - I have a Silvia and (was) suffering from really minimal flow from the left, and most from the right.

    Being an engineer - I thought levelness. Nope. Eventually I checked my tamping - lo and behold I was OK left to right but 180degrees from the PF handle, the tamp was high! Fixed that, and the pour is perfectly - and I do mean perfectly even.

    I use a Pullman tamper, and have always glanced at the level marks, but never fore/aft just side to side. Lesson learned!

    I still cant quite get the fluid flow model into my head that causes this, but the cure was instantaneous!

    Hope this helps
    /Kevin

    Leave a comment:

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