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# HELP # Problem with Silvia

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  • #31
    Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

    Air gets in there some how - my guess is the steam valve when the system is cooling down, esp. if you have the steam wand drip problem when it is heating up.

    I used to notice Ms Silvia behaving slightly oddly every few weeks, there was a sort of a snort at the end of shots. At the same time the boiler was obviously not full as it took more than a few seconds for a steady stream of water through the wand.  Being thick it took me a while to associate the two.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

      I was not aware of this forum until today. Local and quite developed for home espresso enthusiasts - a good find.

      Ive had some experience recently with the problems being discussed in this thread.

      In the case of my Silvia I believe myself, the retailer and the technicians involved have been through what is clearly an education process with the Sylvia and what is apparently a reduction in the robustness of the currently shipping boilers being manufactured.

      The machine is several years old with a boiler replacement that was around 18 months old. The machine has reliably produced cappucinos in that time, is used daily and has always been powered on/off by timer overnight.

      Initially there was a problem with shorting the electricity like the OP describes. After a failed service attempt of replacing the power cable, this was remedied with a replaced boiler.

      Calcification was found at the base of the replaced boiler. The assumption made here was that a leak was the cause of the electrical shorting.

      After a short period of normal usage, the new boiler then broke. Something clearly was amiss.

      Like people have discussed here regarding dry sections in the boiler, suspicion went to air in the boiler caused by use of the steam wand.

      I believe the lessson learned is that the boilers shipping now are extremely sensitive to even the smallest amount of air getting in.

      edit: and in particular being left in for long periods of time and perhaps exagerated by this small amount of air being present through an overnight power off/on cycle.

      In unchanged operating conditions these new boilers are breaking if the most diligent of boiler priming practice is not used. Far in excess of the instructions provided in the manual as noted by a poster in this thread.

      The practice found to prevent the boiler from breaking is after every milk coffee produced to
      - open the steam wand valve
      - press the coffee button
      - run until water from the steam wand flows solid
      - close the steam wand valve
      - turn off the coffee button

      The steam wand and water are now both full of water.

      As an added precaution the machine is turned off manually overnight and turned on manually in the morning instead of using a timer.

      I agree with the poster above who suggests this is a design flaw. Unfortunately neither the distributor or the manufacturer are interested in taking responsibility when presented with this experience.

      Perhaps the voice of one retailer representing one customer was insufficient motivation.

      Unfortunately with the distributor and manufacturer not taking responsibility this placed the customer and the retailer in the difficult position of trying to resolve who would take responsibility and bear costs.

      Whilst eventually resolved, I fear this has lead to an irrepairable breakdown in communication, which ultimately becomes the customers problem when it comes time for service if the retailer is unwilling to put the experience behind them.

      I am in need of assistance with service at this time, so we will see where we stand and whether we can move past this experience and accept it for the educational experience that it was.

      It is interesting I believe to come to this forum and see in the first thread of interest I find that other people have experienced related problems with this unit. I believe the retailer is not aware of this as they did repeatedly claim that all of their Silvia customers experienced no such problems.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

        Originally posted by 3A3C2B2B3D4E0 link=1251018198/31#31 date=1267401846
        I was not aware of this forum until today. Local and quite developed for home espresso enthusiasts - a good find.

        Ive had some experience recently with the problems being discussed in this thread.

        In the case of my Silvia I believe myself, the retailer and the technicians involved have been through what is clearly an education process with the Sylvia and what is apparently a reduction in the robustness of the currently shipping boilers being manufactured.

        The machine is several years old with a boiler replacement that was around 18 months old. The machine has reliably produced cappucinos in that time, is used daily and has always been powered on/off by timer overnight.

        Initially there was a problem with shorting the electricity like the OP describes. After a failed service attempt of replacing the power cable, this was remedied with a replaced boiler.

        Calcification was found at the base of the replaced boiler. The assumption made here was that a leak was the cause of the electrical shorting.

        After a short period of normal usage, the new boiler then broke. Something clearly was amiss.

        Like people have discussed here regarding dry sections in the boiler, suspicion went to air in the boiler caused by use of the steam wand.

        I believe the lessson learned is that the boilers shipping now are extremely sensitive to even the smallest amount of air getting in.

        In unchanged operating conditions these new boilers are breaking if the most diligent of boiler priming practice is not used. Far in excess of the instructions provided in the manual as noted by a poster in this thread.

        The practice found to prevent the boiler from breaking is after every milk coffee produced to
        - open the steam wand valve
        - press the coffee button
        - run until water from the steam wand flows solid
        - close the steam wand valve
        - turn off the coffee button

        The steam wand and water are now both full of water.

        As an added precaution the machine is turned off manually overnight and turned on manually in the morning instead of using a timer.

        I agree with the poster above who suggests this is a design flaw. Unfortunately neither the distributor or the manufacturer are interested in taking responsibility when presented with this experience.

        Perhaps the voice of one retailer representing one customer was insufficient motivation.

        Unfortunately with the distributor and manufacturer not taking responsibility this placed the customer and the retailer in the difficult position of trying to resolve who would take responsibility and bear costs.

        Whilst eventually resolved, I fear this has lead to an irrepairable breakdown in communication, which ultimately becomes the customers problem when it comes time for service if the retailer is unwilling to put the experience behind them.

        I am in need of assistance with service at this time, so we will see where we stand and whether we can move past this experience and accept it for the educational experience that it was.

        It is interesting I believe to come to this forum and see in the first thread of interest I find that other people have experienced related problems with this unit. I believe the retailer is not aware of this as they did repeatedly claim that all of their Silvia customers experienced no such problems.
        Interesting post and well constructed..

        Where are you located ?

        I have also been asked on more than one occasion to confirm shorts / tripping etc on the Silvia and am a little surprised that a simple mod can not be implemented, to resolve such a critical issue. In particular when many recommend this unit to those just starting off.

        We all know that mistakes and other family members may not be so watchfully. Or like another post... Owner went on leave and the flat mate made a coffee.. Opps... Blown boiler.

        I dont have one to play with.. But there must be a simple mod...

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

          Originally posted by 1513040412610 link=1251018198/31#31 date=1267401846
          I believe the lessson learned is that the boilers shipping now are extremely sensitive to even the smallest amount of air getting in.
          There is plenty of dissolved air in water naturally. Air is going to get into the boiler. Additionally, you need some "air" space in the boiler whenever you are going to use the steam function- this space is filled with steam, but it is basically the same thing.

          In unchanged operating conditions these new boilers are breaking if the most diligent of boiler priming practice is not used. Far in excess of the instructions provided in the manual as noted by a poster in this thread.

          The practice found to prevent the boiler from breaking is after every milk coffee produced to
          - open the steam wand valve
          - press the coffee button
          do you mean the HOT WATER button?
          - run until water from the steam wand flows solid
          - close the steam wand valve
          - turn off the coffee button
          The steam wand and water are now both full of water.
          If this is a widespread problem it would indicate that Rancilio received a shipment of out of spec boilers. If that is the case then I believe we will soon see a lot more reports of this sort.

          It would be interesting to see the actual damage to the heating element which might help diagnose the cause.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

            Originally posted by 744748425F796108260 link=1251018198/33#33 date=1267405538
            Originally posted by 1513040412610 link=1251018198/31#31 date=1267401846
            I believe the lessson learned is that the boilers shipping now are extremely sensitive to even the smallest amount of air getting in.
            There is plenty of dissolved air in water naturally. Air is going to get into the boiler. Additionally, you need some "air" space in the boiler whenever you are going to use the steam function- this space is filled with steam, but it is basically the same thing.

            In unchanged operating conditions these new boilers are breaking if the most diligent of boiler priming practice is not used. Far in excess of the instructions provided in the manual as noted by a poster in this thread.

            The practice found to prevent the boiler from breaking is after every milk coffee produced to
            - open the steam wand valve
            - press the coffee button
            do you mean the HOT WATER button?
            - run until water from the steam wand flows solid
            - close the steam wand valve
            - turn off the coffee button
            The steam wand and water are now both full of water.
            If this is a widespread problem it would indicate that Rancilio received a shipment of out of spec boilers. If that is the case then I believe we will soon see a lot more reports of this sort.

            It would be interesting to see the actual damage to the heating element which might help diagnose the cause.
            Yes... But getting access is / can be a pain if the item is under warranty... If you pay for it then thats a different matter.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

              Originally posted by 644B42405768444B44424048404B51250 link=1251018198/32#32 date=1267402807
              Originally posted by 3A3C2B2B3D4E0 link=1251018198/31#31 date=1267401846
              ...snip...
              Interesting post and well constructed..

              Where are you located ?

              I have also been asked on more than one occasion to confirm shorts / tripping  etc on the Silvia and am a little surprised that a simple mod can not be implemented, to resolve such a critical issue.  In particular when many recommend this unit to those just starting off.  

              We all know that mistakes and other family members may not be so watchfully.  Or like another post... Owner went on leave and the flat mate made a coffee.. Opps... Blown boiler.

              I dont have one to play with.. But there must be a simple mod...
              Hi AngerManagement, Im located in Sydney.

              I hear you regarding the ease with which it seems boilers can be blown in the Silvia, particularly now, and agree with the sentiment regarding new users. Although I have had several years to develop from total noob I still acknowledge these are my roots and I came upon this machine under similar recomendations. In fact, it has only been through these failures that I have become more educated on proper maintenance and this has forced me to pop the hood so to speak and get an education. I sympathise with the many who would not go to this extent and resign to frustration.

              It is even true to say back in the day there were numerous ocassions over the years where I did not monitor water replenishment and allowed the thing to timer off over night when the resevoir was going to suck air at the next shot. Note, the boiler was never walked away from after the noise of sucking air - immediately a reservoir replenishment would follow in that case without fail.

              Did this lead to air in the boiler sometimes? Quite possibly. I am not a technican so I cannot say for certain. But it happened on several an occassion and it may explain why the retailer is now saying do not use a timer as presumably the cold wake up is a potentially higher element blowing exposure. I did not get hard reasoning for why I was being given this advice, but clearly there was some guestimated experience at work behind it.

              The point is though that this behaviour and ignoring repriming the boiler after every single milk coffee was fine for several years - noting that I did need to replace the boiler once out of warranty during those years... I suppose there was somewhat of a beating going on which eventually took its toll... but even still... for the number of times I was apparently running the gauntlet back then compared to a replaced boiler blowing within days - in fact I think this happened twice, it was clear something had changed.

              Ive taken some shots of the boiler that I got back from the paid replacement that eventually was opted for by the retailer when I was experiencing the shorting - I wont bore you with the problems leading up to this other than to say the owner was away and he had left charge with someone whose work he wasnt happy with upon return.

              I dont even remember if they said the element was gone in this boiler which I had to pay around $250 to replace (out of part warranty). Maybe you can tell from the pics. I can see no other reason why they would say it needed to be replaced though as presumably any calcification suspected of causing leaks can be removed easily enough.

              The other two new replacement boilers I dont have access to. These are the boilers that had elements blowing and lead to the education for all involved that there was a reduced robustness in the boilers now being manufactured. Either the retailer or the distributors technician kept them.

              I do recall being shown one at the retailers site and there being discolouration at the very top of the element where air would be found if water was not replenished after stretching milk.

              Its interesting to note that there is some awareness of this problem in the manufacturers manual where they say that you must reprime the boiler if you are stretching milk for longer than something like a couple of minutes. This is not the case for me as I only do one coffee at a time and it takes all of about 10-15 seconds.

              In the end the retailer covered the first boiler replacement under part warranty with reasoning being given of the problems he had with his substitute whilst on leave, however the second boiler was where the retailer would not budge and nor would the distributor or manufacturer.

              In the end the compromise was the retailer wasnt willing to absorb the cost and I was passed to the distributors technician who replaced the boiler at their cost of around $100. I should have asked for the boiler, but I didnt think to unfortunately.




              Interestingly, the retailer was showing me another tier of espresso machines in store that dont suffer from these problems of manual replenishment due to exchanging water with another container in the system and I believe the possibility of hooking that up in turn to your plumbing or a large tank.

              I agree with you that it would be logical for a safety mechanism to be built in to this device, particularly given the communities apparent support to entry level sales.

              This of course assumes you are not overly interested in being in the business of selling replacement boilers to the tune of $250 to the consumer. I would find it hard to believe being interested in the boiler replacement game would be a viable strategy for any business in the long run as sooner or later people are going to start asking questions and connect the dots.




              Randy, regarding a couple of your observations I can offer this.

              Whilst that is true about air for steaming note that now my procedure is to always replenish water to the boiler after steaming. So now water is consumed to pull the shot, the wand is then bleed on the steam setting, i wait for the element to do its cycle and the light to go out, steam is run through the milk and then I do the repriming of the boiler procedure mentioned above.

              Yes, I use the coffee button, not the water button. To be honest with you I dont know what difference the water button makes, but I seem to be able to accomplish the required result with the coffee button and in fact the retailers new instructions sheet refers to this button for repriming. Is there a difference in the water buttons function? Whether I get coffee or not seems to me to depend on what is in my basket after all hehe.

              I also cant confirm if the boilers are out of spec or of it is simply a matter of a change in practice or material composition/preparation, perhaps with a change in an outsourced manufacturer... matters perhaps left unspecified and discretionary. I am not a technician, so this is my best assessment.

              The pics are attached of the boiler that was replaced at the time shorting was resolved if youd like to take a look.









              Comment


              • #37
                Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

                Regarding the service I needed today I did manage to get the leaking problem sorted with help from posts in this forum which is awesome.

                In particular this one where I had the same resolution as luwaks http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1265855567/0#7.

                I did have a somewhat half hearted response from my Silvia retailer whom I was making inquiries with during this maintenance, but I suspect as I indicated earlier in this thread I think that theyd still prefer not to know about my Rancilio Silvia at the moment. Its a bit of a shame if a communication breakdown over a problem that is the fault of the manufacturer is taken to heart.

                I hope we have rebuilt a good raporte for our next contact as it would be a shame to have to start over.

                I am sure Ill be able to get some good advice for alternatives here though, so there is always that upside.

                I have been starting to think about a stepless doser mazzer to relegate my rocky friend and roasting options - hoping not to make entry level mistakes with the latter.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

                  Latest: I had a call from a technician who claimed that he couldnt fault my machine under test. Is testing for conditions that cause an earth leakage trip not something these guys learn? I told him to try harder ...

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

                    Originally posted by 7B636267627B666A68630B0 link=1251018198/37#37 date=1268473923
                    Latest: I had a call from a technician who claimed that he couldnt fault my machine under test. Is testing for conditions that cause an earth leakage trip not something these guys learn? I told him to try harder ...
                    It failed every time we put a NATA endorsed tester on it.....  And when we disconnected the element it passed..  SIMPLE...


                    He will just be a Machine tec and may well not have an Electrical licence or formal background.... May not even know what AS3760 or the testing procedures are.

                    If that is the case, I trust he is not working in Qld.. Or that the company is not based or providing technical work in Qld.

                    They are required by law to Test and Tag before returning to you..

                    Just remind them of the latest push and seminars being held....

                    http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/fair-and-safe-work/electrical-safety

                    The seminars are an opportunity for all those associated with the electrical industry to recognise the risks and identify the solutions for working around electrical equipment and live electrical parts. Electrical safety inspectors will run these seminars and will introduce you to the updated risk management requirements.  

                    Who should attend?

                    Appliance repairers
                    • Apprentices - electrical and refrigeration
                    • Designers and manufacturers of electrical equipment
                    • Designers of electrical installations
                    • Electrical contractors
                    • Electrical engineers
                    • Electrical licence holders
                    • Electrical workers
                    • Electricians
                    • Facilities managers
                    • Maintenance electricians
                    • Maintenance managers and engineers
                    • Refrigeration workers - electrical licence holders
                    Restricted electrical licence holders
                    • Safety managers and officers
                    Service and maintenance technicians
                    • Supervisors and managers of electrical workers

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

                      Ive had it back over a seek and its still working fine, despite the techie still claiming the old part (which he handed over) was not broken, and it had to be my earth leakage being too sensitive. At least it didnt cost me anything to fix.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

                        Originally posted by 4D555451544D505C5E553D0 link=1251018198/39#39 date=1270633948
                        Ive had it back over a seek and its still working fine, despite the techie still claiming the old part (which he handed over) was not broken, and it had to be my earth leakage being too sensitive. At least it didnt cost me anything to fix.
                        Good the hear..

                        Besides it failed on my Certified tester.. And I will stand behind those readings.

                        Dont toss it..

                        Could be a great talking / training piece.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: # HELP # Problem with Silvia

                          Originally posted by 7C646560657C616D6F640C0 link=1251018198/39#39 date=1270633948
                          Ive had it back over a seek and its still working fine, despite the techie still claiming the old part (which he handed over) was not broken, and it had to be my earth leakage being too sensitive. At least it didnt cost me anything to fix.
                          Picked it up today...


                          1: Dropped it into a bag and presented to the front desk of the Electrical commission here in Brisbane..

                          2: Asked if one of their senior tecs / inspectors could check the unit out / comment  

                          3: Came back about 45min later to collect..  8-)

                          4: On returning was ushered into an office with two suites   :-X

                          5: Before saying much I just  provided a note with the following

                          "the techie still claiming the old part (which he handed over) was not broken, and it had to be my earth leakage being too sensitive. "

                          6: There was some discussion that followed and I had the option to submit a "Dangerous Event complaint"....  I did not go down that path; as the item has been repaired.

                          However the commission indicated very strongly that the user in this case was lucky and that others may not be so lucky and or may not have an ELCB and could be at risk.  And that this is still a reportable offence and that I need to consider my own licences, as it is a mandatory for me to file a formal report and part of the T&C of my licence..

                          I am attending further Electrical and information sessions this week and may raise this item and processes there; for further discussion....  But I am 99.95% sure of what the outcome will be.

                          Philip if you read this; can you please PM me the supplier details...

                          Regards
                          AM.

                          PS. If ya have not realised... The unit is Faulty and considered Dangerous. In all these circumstances the item should have also been modified to ensure it can not be used.. It was not and further hints at the experience / understanding the TECH / Company  has.

                          Comment

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