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Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

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  • Leaking around PF on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    On the weekend my EM6910 started leaking around the portafilter. I checked out the many topics here on the subject, and read the manual. Rang Sunbeam, was advised to go to a supplier. Picked up two seals. Replaced. Still leaking. I rang Sunbeam, and was told that if the new seal did not fix it, then it would probably be the collar. Nothing new here, you may say. True

    Heres the bit that I think is of interest. My machine is only about 10 months old, and gets used about 3 times a day. I dont think I have used excessive strength to put the PF on the machine. Sunbeam advised that if the collar was worn, then it was NOT covered by the warranty. It was wear and tear, they said. Id call it a major design flaw.

    On one of the threads here prices for replacing the collar are given as ranging from $150 to $220.

    My question to those of you out there who have had this problem (with the collar) is how long you had the machine before it materialized.

    One other note - I am not sure the collar on my machine is gone - I have pulled a couple of shots, and have noticed that the leak gets less, so maybe the seal is wearing in. Let you know how it goes.

  • #2
    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

    Originally posted by 3F35383B3B383536393136540 link=1258949921/0#0 date=1258949921
    On the weekend my EM6910 started leaking around the group handle.  I checked out the many topics here on the subject, and read the manual. Rang Sunbeam, was advised to go to a supplier.  Picked up two seals.  Replaced.  Still leaking.  I rang Sunbeam, and was told that if the new seal did not fix it, then it would probably be the collar. Nothing new here, you may say.  True

    Heres the bit that I think is of interest.   My machine is only about 10 months old, and gets used about 3 times a day.  I dont think I have used excessive strength to put the group handle on the machine.  Sunbeam advised that if the collar was worn, then it was NOT covered by the warranty. It was wear and tear, they said.  Id call it a major design flaw.

    On one of the threads here prices for replacing the collar are given as ranging from $150 to $220.

    My question to those of you out there who have had this problem (with the collar) is how long you had the machine before it materialized.

    One other note - I am not sure the collar on my machine is gone - I have pulled a couple of shots, and have noticed that the leak gets less, so maybe the seal is wearing in.  Let you know how it goes.

    Do not need excessive strength..  Over dosing and coffee expansion and or running well above the sweet spot will all cause the collar to have problems.. As well as not locking in correctly..

    Have seen units with the ware on either the L/H or R/H lug... It is interesting to then note what preference the user has...  They often end up with an uneven tamp and thus one side will bind first..  Most users OVERDOSE rather than up dosing..  

    As to the $$ value... About $60 for teh part..  It can be a pain the change and depends on the agent and their charge rate :-)


    First machine showed some distortion after 4 months-- I was OVERDOSING..

    I replaced at 18 months my self....

    My other new unit showed minor signs at 12 months but at 2.5 years was still OK..

    Have another unit at work - RED and was second hand... Still OK but abused by others and is due for a new collar about 3 and a bit years old and 2 years at work....  They all know not to REDLINE...  Sweet spot is 11 on this baby...

    You wont like what I am saying... But Cleaning the group collar and having a soft touch does wonders for the EM6910... Along with correct dosing and tamping..

    To date I have not seen a collar that does not show some ware... But all the units that I have seen that have failed / become a problem has been due to the way it has been used....  Have seen group lugs that look like they have been hit with a hammer, and collars that are so gummed up and worn that ya eyes would pop.. Shower screen... What shower screen ???

    Where are you located ?

    New seal... What about a spacer... If teh spacer fixes it.. Should do... It means ya collar is worn..  Plenty of pics on CS as to worn collars... Bith before and after... Just use the search function..

    You previously had a problem with teh Chrome - Did they change teh group for you then / did you log that issue with SB ????

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1250476712/0#0

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

      Id call it a major design flaw.
      So do I.
      "Commercial quality" my @$$!!!

      The unit I use needed a replacement collar after 10 months; but its at work and gets a LOT of use.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

        Originally posted by 5965786369687F6A62690D0 link=1258949921/2#2 date=1258958047
        Id call it a major design flaw.
        So do I.
        "Commercial quality" my @$$!!!

        The unit I use needed a replacement collar after 10 months; but its at work and gets a LOT of use.
        TG... Ya know I agree with ya... But


        For those without the background...

        1: SB Box states - Commercial  Design

        2: SB site states - Commercial size group head and handle

        3: Manual cover states - Commercial  Design

        3A:
        • The Sunbeam Café Series® delivers quality, style and superior performance capturing the essence of the commercial kitchen.
        • The twin pumps enables the coffee maker to deliver instant steam for texturing milk and at the same time produce a serve of espresso just like a commercial machine.
        • The commercial 360° ball joint allows the steam wand to be moved into the ideal position.
        • Commercial size group head
        • Commercial size group handle
        • True to commercial use, the unique TPTT™ System  features twin pumps and twin thermoblocks, this allows the coffee maker to texture milk and pour an espresso simultaneously.
        • The Standard Filter Baskets (one and two cup) are the same specification as used with commercial espresso machines and are less tolerant to the quality of the coffee bean.
        • The Anti-Calc water filter fitted inside the 3 litre water reservoir has a 12 month life for domestic use and a 3 month life for commercial use.

        The Sunbeam 5 Year Pump Guarantee

        The Anti-Calc water filter fitted inside the 3 litre water reservoir has a 12 month life for domestic use and a 3 month life for commercial use.


        Findings



        The only points that are clearly of a Commercial nature is as to;

        A: The Anti Calc water filter - OEM product - thus I understand the reason.

        B:  The Pump Guarantee - Again, Steam pump is a SB special and is not the same quality as the main pump - OEM..  Thus a single statement covers them...

        C:  The Standard Filter Baskets (one and two cup) are the same specification as used with commercial espresso machines

        Conclusion:


        A cleaver use of the word "Commercial" from a marketing point of view..

        Words and Concepts;  Of the Commercial, Like, Essence, Size etc etc


        For some, this may translate to a Perception of Commercial Quality, but in reality, no where does it state that the UNIT IS (on paper)... They are thus afforded some level of protection from a legal view point.....  There are some concerns over the words that some have used on TV and other marketing methods...  However without full transcripts of the actual adds / broadcasts and the scripts...  Blame / responsibility as to what people Heard Vs Understood is yet to be proven..  However I was reminded that people often only hear the words they want... Not always the full sentence or context  ;D


        Yes.... I went and saw a Contracts and Business person as extra studies to my contractors licence- And YES...  I was anal to bring this and other long running issues up with him and his partner, a little while ago... But  your post was the trigger..  Not sure if I should thank you or NOT  

        And please; Everyone  - DONT  SHOOT THE MESSENGER...  

        If  any one has issues with what I have stated...  Go back and read it again in CONTEXT... Then take it up with your legal person and SB....

        Are they any worse or better than many other equipment suppliers..  NO, their in business to make $$$,  pay their CEO and SHAREHOLDERS (Often YOU- You do have supper dont you)...  

        END OF RANT.



        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

          the Sunbeam
          Café Series® is built to last.

          The Café Series® Espresso Machine is
          designed with quality die-cast metal
          components

          The group head, group handle and filters are
          designed to commercial specifications using
          brass and stainless steel components.


          All the above quotes are from the instruction book.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

            Originally posted by 724E5348424354414942260 link=1258949921/4#4 date=1258968781
            the Sunbeam
            Café Series® is built to last.

            The Café Series® Espresso Machine is
            designed with quality die-cast metal
            components


            The group head, group handle and filters are
            designed to commercial specifications using
            brass and stainless steel components.


            All the above quotes are from the instruction book.
            Yep - Saw and chatted over some of these and any number of other marketing comments as well...

            Using brass and stainless steel components - But does not give a % or breakdown..  

            Group head and Handle is brass but the collar = Quality die-cast = gun metal = cheep... WHY ???? This is the biggest problem... Will the new changes fix it... NO, but should assist a bit.

            Thus their statements are 100% correct...

            Built to last....  So am I, but how long that actually means is one of conjecture.. Just ask my wife  

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

              Originally posted by 162A372C262730252D26420 link=1258949921/4#4 date=1258968781
              the Sunbeam
              Café Series® is built to last.

              The Café Series® Espresso Machine is
              designed with quality die-cast metal
              components

              The group head, group handle and filters are
              designed to commercial specifications using
              brass and stainless steel components*.


              All the above quotes are from the instruction book.
              But you missed the fine print:

              *with the exception of the group collar which is laser-cut from a single block of gruyere cheese

              So the collar can really be damaged not just from the friction of inserting/removing the group but also the downward force exerted during an extraction??! It must be a very soft metal!


              Built to last....  So am I, but how long that actually means is one of conjecture.. Just ask my wife  Wink
              Lasting is one thing, lasting and being useful is another - just ask my wife! ;D

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

                Heres the bit that I think is of interest. My machine is only about 10 months old, and gets used about 3 times a day. I dont think I have used excessive strength to put the group handle on the machine. Sunbeam advised that if the collar was worn, then it was NOT covered by the warranty. It was wear and tear, they said. Id call it a major design flaw.
                Ive come across these dodgy tactics before from another multinational - essentially SB know that the group collar is not fit for purpose - but doing the right thing and replacing them all would cost them too much. So they push it back onto their customers by claiming its normal wear and tear and excluding it from the warranty. The giveaway is that they have made this claim without examining the machine to determine whether the wear was caused by a fault in materials or manufacturing.

                There is no basis for this exclusion under consumer law - fair wear and tear does not extend to failure of a major and critical component that costs up to 25% of the machines RRP to replace, soon after purchase. The group seal wearing out would be an example of fair wear and tear.

                Given that your machine is within the manufacturers warranty - I would push them to repair it. Making mention of the Trade Practices Act and the ACCC usually moves things along nicely.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

                  It must be a very soft metal!
                  A teaspoon can scrape away a burr on the grouphead.
                  My hose fittings are made of harder brass.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

                    Originally posted by 7558180 link=1258949921/6#6 date=1259014184
                    It must be a very soft metal!
                    To give you an idea of exactly HOW soft:

                    Dinky Toys and Corgi Toys are both described as being manufactured from "quality die caste metal" thus proving the "perception vs reality" point in Anger Managements post/s.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

                      Blimey!

                      Thinking about this some more - if wear and tear is now their standard response to collar issues - they are shooting themselves in the foot by indirectly admitting that the collar will not last under normal domestic use!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

                        Originally posted by 624F0F0 link=1258949921/10#10 date=1259040788
                        Blimey!

                        Thinking about this some more - if wear and tear is now their standard response to collar issues - they are shooting themselves in the foot by indirectly admitting that the collar will not last under normal domestic use!

                        Ya its a shame every thing today, has to be built to cater for the LCD


                        I would suggest you may wish to define NORMAL... None of the units I have seen for repair could be defined as having had normal treatment...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

                          Thanks for all your posts - Ive read them all in detail, and appreciate the feedback. The problem did not improve, so I am not using it any more.

                          If it were the fault of the user and not a problem in the design or materials used in this particular machine, then I would expect to hear it was a common problem with many espresso machines - such as the Sylvia or Ikon. Does anyone know of instances of these or others wearing in the same way?

                          I contacted Consumer Affairs, who said the warranty is the responsibility of the retailer as far as the purchaser is concerned, not the manufacturer. I then rang the retailer and they said to bring it in. They will take it up with Sunbeam - but it will take 4-6 weeks. There is no guarantee Sunbeam wont tell them the same thing, but I will go back to Consumer Affairs if I get the run-around.

                          I suspect the problem will turn out to be something else anyway.
                          Ive checked the lugs and the collar, and quite frankly I cant even see any wear and tear. The metal on the underside of the lugs is not only not worn, it even has most of the chrome still on it. I looked at the rim on the collar where they engage, and I cant see any grooves or damage, and it seems as it should be - no ridges, no wear. It seems right when I run my finger over it - cant feel anything out of place. I cant figure it out.

                          I pulled out my old stove-top tonight, and made a coffee with it, texturing the milk with the EM6910. Not a very nice cup by comparison, Im afraid, but it looks like Im going to have to get used to it (even worse without the textured milk!).

                          I have a friend who had made up his mind last week to buy the EM6910 and grinder offer that Myer has running at the moment - largely on my discussions with him to date. After I told him what happened I doubt he will go ahead with the purchase.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

                            Originally posted by 353F323131323F3C333B3C5E0 link=1258949921/12#12 date=1259067541
                            Thanks for all your posts - Ive read them all in detail, and appreciate the feedback.  The problem did not improve, so I am not using it any more.  

                            If it were the fault of the user and not a problem in the design or materials used in this particular machine, then I would expect to hear it was a common problem with many espresso machines - such as the Sylvia or Ikon.  Does anyone know of instances of these or others wearing in the same way?

                            I contacted Consumer Affairs, who said the warranty is the responsibility of the retailer as far as the purchaser is concerned, not the manufacturer.  I then rang the retailer and they said to bring it in.  They will take it up with Sunbeam - but it will take 4-6 weeks. There is no guarantee Sunbeam wont tell them the same thing, but I will go back to Consumer Affairs if I get the run-around.

                            I suspect the problem will turn out to be something else anyway.  
                            Ive checked the lugs and the collar, and quite frankly I cant even see any wear and tear.  The metal on the underside of the lugs is not only not worn, it even has most of the chrome still on it.  I looked at the rim on the collar where they engage, and I cant see any grooves or damage, and it seems as it should be - no ridges, no wear.  It seems right when I run my finger over it - cant feel anything out of place.  I cant figure it out.

                            I pulled out my old stove-top tonight, and made a coffee with it, texturing the milk with the EM6910.  Not a very nice cup by comparison, Im afraid, but it looks like Im going to have to get used to it (even worse without the textured milk!).

                            I have a friend who had made up his mind last week to buy the EM6910 and grinder offer that Myer has running at the moment - largely on my discussions with him to date.  After I told him what happened I doubt he will go ahead with the purchase.
                            Be interesting to see where it ends up :-)

                            PS. Where are you located.. If ya profile is up to date, then CSs like myself may be in your general area

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Leaking around group handle on EM6910 - How long before your collar wore out?

                              Originally posted by 200F0604132C000F0006040C040F15610 link=1258949921/11#11 date=1259043347
                              Originally posted by 624F0F0 link=1258949921/10#10 date=1259040788
                              Blimey!

                              Thinking about this some more - if wear and tear is now their standard response to collar issues - they are shooting themselves in the foot by indirectly admitting that the collar will not last under normal domestic use!

                              Ya its a shame every thing today, has to be built to cater for the LCD  


                              I would suggest you may wish to define NORMAL...  None of the units I have seen for repair could be defined as having had normal treatment...
                              "Normal use" could perhaps be used interchangeably with "normal abuse"

                              I would define normal use as that laid out by the manual - not looking to excuse people who fail to follow a cleaning schedule etc. In context - I used the term to differentiate from commercial use (ie an average of say five coffees per day as opposed to being used constantly all day every day).

                              Anecdotally - some machines have been cared for and still suffered collar failure.

                              The LCD point is actually true enough and IMO fair enough, particularly in the case of something intended for use by the masses. Something software engineers have come to realise is that blaming the user often dodges the real issue - if the users always click the wrong button - then perhaps the button is in the wrong place or the correct option is unclear. The same principle applies here - from the Wikipedia entry on user error: Experts in interaction design such as Alan Cooper[1] believe this concept puts blame in the wrong place, the user, instead of blaming the error-inducing design and its failure to take into account human imperfections

                              The upgraded GH points to Sunbeam recognising that at least part of the problem lies in their materials and design.

                              Comment

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