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EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

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  • EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

    The old Saeco 2002 has worn me out, too hard to do good shots with, too old, and a pain to keep clean and maintain thanks to dated design.

    Just replaced my grinder, out with the old worn sunbeam and in with the new (cafe series this time), works good for me at the price.

    But looking around, I figure around $600 is ok for a new machine, new with easier to get parts, easier to use and keep clean, and likely make better coffee.

    Lelit seems to be popular now, and pulls great shots, cheaper than a Sunbeam which seems a shocker, whats the catch?.

    Sunbeam is still there, Im suprised there has been no update in what 3+ years now?, has there been a final word on lifespan etc?.

    As always I do 4-8 single or double shots a day depending on who else is around to drink my coffee, big milk drinker so almost always a flat white etc.

    So what should I get?, or what is the smart buy, or is there another I have missed?.

  • #2
    Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

    I just bought a lelit and I am very happy with it. Makes great coffee, good steam and feels well built. I would not buy the sunbeam when the lelit can be had for this price.

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    • #3
      Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...


      Interesting reading around...

      So the Lelit is pulling Silvia grade shots for a chunk less change, heats up faster and possibly keeps a more stable temp, add in some nice looking internals and full SS body, Im still looking for the catch.

      EM is not looking so crash hot, I see reports of steam failures, and parts wearing out in rather short use, with repairs costing a mint, and not real user easy to repair.


      Was not all that convinced I wanted another boiler machine, but hey I guess if I can make sure to keep others away from it, issues with the old 2002 cause some people really dont understand care and/or maintenance.

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      • #4
        Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

        I did alot of reading around too and came to the same conclusion. It seems that unless you have a budget that allows for a more expensive $1.5K++ machine you wont do better. And I gather that if you need to be making mutiple shots at the same time, you will want HX ,but for one to two shots at a time useage the Lelit is a star. I also noticed the sunbeam and breville machines seem to have a lot of reliability/leakage issues, but can make a reasonable coffee otherwise for a cheap price.

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        • #5
          Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

          Originally posted by 624953484F50200 link=1289144599/2#2 date=1289221555
          Im still looking for the catch
          No catch. From my experience (with the Combi), the Lelit is a great unit, does the basics right. The main differences with the Silvia are the 58mm group head (as opposed to 57mm for the Lelit) and the overall build quality. Not that the Lelit is not well built, its just not as solid as the Silvia (as you could read from it being about 5kg less weight). I think the Lelit cuts a few corners on non-essential things (like plastic drip tray).

          All in all, I was very happy with my Lelit. The Sumbean has a few more features (particularly the dual thermoblocks allowing you to steam as you brew) but Im glad I didnt get one. The more simple, solid basics of the Lelit appealed to me much more. The Silvia appealed to me but not at the extra price (and, from my experience, not with the extra temperature issues - PIDing would fix these but then youre well over $1k...).

          The Lelit is the "bang for your buck" unit for mine.

          Greg

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          • #6
            Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

            I had a Quaha Napoletana II (an early version of the Lelit Combi) and purchased it because of its bang for buck factor. Whats the catch? Depends how you want to use it. For me I got rid of it because I needed a machine with a 58mm portafilter to prototype tampers on, whereas the Lelit has 57mm. The build quality isnt as solid as the Silvia, the portafilter is lighter, the drip tray lid is thinner, all round its a less robust machine (presuming these are all the same on the Lelit which may or may not be the case). That all said, theres nothing inadequate about it in itself, its only by comparison to the Silvia that it feels a *bit* cheaper. But then it is; several hundred dollars worth when you consider a Silvia is more than the Combi and you then have to buy a grinder. For me it was a simple decision and it served me well for the four years I owned it for.

            As far as a comparo with the Sunbeam, its the same question of Sunbeam vs Silvia so Id direct you to http://www.coffeetamper.com.au/**/reviews/sunbeam-silvia/ and take a quick look at the pros and cons down the bottom, because feature for feature its a very similar equation.


            Originally posted by 200B110A0D12620 link=1289144599/2#2 date=1289221555

            So the Lelit ... heats up faster
            Nope. Like the Silvia, you should leave the Lelit to warm up for about an hour before use (you could get away with half an hour). The Sunbeams group was too hot to touch while the Silvias was barely warm. The Sunbeam is a killer if you want to drag people home and crank out 12 lattes within 20 minutes of turning the machine on. Youll never do that with a Silvia or a Lelit. Thats not an issue for me so the Lelit would still be my choice, but think carefully about how you want to use the machine before biting the bullet.

            Greg

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            • #7
              Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

              Nope. Like the Silvia, you should leave the Lelit to warm up for about an hour before use (you could get away with half an hour). The Sunbeams group was too hot to touch while the Silvias was barely warm.

              Greg - Agree with your comments above apart from this one.  The Lelit warms up incredibly qiuckly and group is too hot to touch at around 10 minutes - even the filter basket is hot.   It really is quick.  Im not sure if the new machines heat up faster or not, but Ive read similar comments elsewhere.  
              Ive done general taste tests at 10 min, 20 and 30 and there seems to be no noticable difference in taste or crema.  Not sure if heating it up for an extended period is meant to be better for pouring a god shot or if you want to pull more than one shot, but seems good to me.  When staying at my brothers place and using his Silvia it did seem to take longer to warm up, but half an hour would be fine.  What noticable difference is there from half an hour to an hour?  Perhaps the difference is with the Silvia;s slightly heavier constructer portafilter.

              On the thermoblock machines, they can make good or even great coffee in the right hands, however I had problems with my breville dying on me twice in two years, and I beleive this was partly from overuse , but also from the thermoblocks not being as long life as single boilers.  Not suggesting all thermoblock machines will die on you like mine and Im sure youll find people on this site that have been knocking out coffee;s with these machines for ages, but my belief (and I think the general school of thought), is that single boilers like the Silvia and Lelit will usually give you a very long life if looked after.  


              ps
              Theres another machine called the Gee which a site sponser has which is similar in price to Silvia if you want to add another machine to the list under consideration,

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              • #8
                Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...


                Its likely funny, but Id love some of the EM features, though Im not sure I could live with a shorter operating life, and slow/wet steam.

                Possibly a victim of having owned a brass boiler machine, even if mine suffered age and difficult/poor shots, one thing it did well was fast dry perfect steam, which for someone like me who adores a perfectly textured flat white, served me well in that area.

                Anyway, Im living off plunger coffee right now cause I just cant face the old saeco anymore, so I really need to get some other stuff sorted so I can order a Lilit asap I think.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...


                  I think I burnt through 2-3 thermo-block machines in around the 3-4 years I owned them, all mine seemed to chew through group seals, and produce wet steam that took a long time to steam milk (to be fair I did not realize it was that long a time till I bought the boiler machine).

                  The last Krups I owned actually did really good shots through a non pressure porta, but I had to dig it out some time back when I was waiting for a part on the saeco, and thought Id die before it finished steaming my milk.

                  Considering my Saeco with boiler has done a fair 3 years of difficult but generally reliable service, I want any replacement to do at least 5 years of trouble free work while being easier to use and repair.

                  And yes I saw the Gee, looks awesome, but that $1000 price point is one I still cant quite justify, I have worked my way up to accepting that $600-$700 range, its quite possible given 3-6 years Ill then be able to accept that $1000+ range, but Im not there yet.

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                  • #10
                    Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

                    The milk is certainly average at best on the Sunbeam. Its good for a thermoblock so if youve been disappointed with thermoblocks in the past (as have many) dont think the Sunbeam is as bad as those; but nothing beats a boiler full of steam!

                    RizzaNZ: The Lelit would probably heat up quicker than the Silvia as the Lelit employs a boiler-on-group design while the Silvia has an offset boiler. The 6910 has a thermoblock-on-group so theyre similar in that regard, except that the 6910 doesnt have a lump of brass plus 300ml of water to heat up. My comment in the review on this point was:

                    "The net result of this is that you can feel significant heat coming off the 6910s showerscreen within a minute or two while the Silvia is only just not cold. Supporting the thermal inertia argument is the fact that 2 hours after turn-off, Silvia was still warm around the group while the 6910 was cold."

                    That being the case (1-2 minutes), my money would still be on the 6910 to be up to operating temperature quicker but it sounds to be less of an issue than the Silvia - which is good as the OP is looking for a Lelit. That said, maximum thermal stability will still be had when the whole the unit (water, boiler, pipes, portafilter, spouts) has had time to heat up, and thats generally accepted to be 30 minutes or so. The only debatable question, as you say, is how much of a difference it makes if you start early. At the end of the day so long as youre happy with the taste thats all that matters.

                    Bishop, despite there being some arguments both ways, I think the consensus is clearly for you to grab a Lelit ASAP and forget the Sunbeam! I know thats what Id be doing in your situation!

                    Greg

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                    • #11
                      Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

                      Maybe theres some variance between individual machines, but Ive actually dialled down the steam temperature on my EM6910 to give me better control - though I typically only steam 100ml - 300ml of milk at once.

                      I havent owned a boiler machine so cant compare directly, but the EM6910 is certainly worlds ahead of the piddling steam produced by the cheap, single-thermoblock machines. Plus of course its always available, unlike a single boiler machine.  

                      As for the Sunbeam being a shocker - when looking at reports of faults you have to take into account the sheer number of these machines that are sold and the people theyre sold to Id say a good proportion of faults are actually caused by clueless users. IME longevity can be good provided youre careful with cleaning and maintenance - and perhaps just a little lucky

                      That said - there are plenty of good reasons to lean toward a solid boiler machine over a made-in-China thermoblock - all depends on your requirements . The Gee is interesting and might just combine the best of both worlds - but probably not in the same budget category price-wise.

                      /2c

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                      • #12
                        Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

                        Greg - get your point about maximum thermal stability. I guess the question is does this impact a single shot, ie temp drops during the shot, or is this going to impact a second and third coffee if the user was kicking out multiple shots? How does this impact look and taste and is there any way of actually testing this? I think the half hour to an hour heat up time to thermal stability may be correct in theory and in use for commercial settings where you need to crank out consistent coffees non stop, but not sure how this would be an issue for domestic user. Also not sure if this has ever been blind taste tested. Is it a theory like tamping pressure (old school law that must be x pounds of pressure), that was only ever an opinion and in reality, not that definitive, or is it more? Note that these are actual questions and not me having an arguement - genuinely interested!

                        ps
                        Anyone new to coffee can tune out now!

                        Bishop - I had non-pressurised krups baskets for my breville 800. They were ok, but let shed loads of coffee grinds through. The holes were so much larger than baskets for Lelit or Silvia. Did you have this problem?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

                          The Krups baskets I had were strange, they are like a bit of fine mesh mounted inside a plastic ring cast into the bottom of the basket, look weird but I dont remember mine letting much grind through.

                          But then the whole experience of making ok shots in a older style thermoblock Krups was a challenge, its all about getting as much coffee as possible into the basket, standing on it, and then choking the hell out of the machine to get the extraction you want, kills group gaskets, I lost track of how many I went through.

                          Mind you, the Saeco was/is almost as hard at times, it may have had a brass boiler, but when you still dealing with small diameter deep baskets, its just so easy to choke the machine trying to get a good shot, and the pump on the saeco I think has never been great (pre-dates the better pumps used in everything now), so really I suspect Ill be real glad to see the back of thermoblocks and small group boilers.

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                          • #14
                            Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

                            I have an 12 year old Krups that Ive had to dig out when getting my EM6910 serviced.  The EM6910 is a great design and I wish it would make good espresso... but after my third replacement Im wondering...  Bizarrely, the Krups makes great shots (made in Germany– I wonder if thats why).  Its messy and a bit clumsy, but (after ripping out all the plastic crap) I get wonderfully viscous pours, a dark crema, solid pucks and the shots have none of the sourness of the Sunbeam shots.  Of note, the temperature of the shots is noticeably different– the Krups shots are for sipping, the Sunbeam for sculling.  I want to love the Sunbeam, and the Sunbeam support team have been awesome, but even with the thermoblock temp set to max, it just doesnt seem hot enough.  A friend has a Lelit and it makes good coffee, although hes very protective of his machine so Ive not had a chance to really test it myself.

                            I know the temperature of the Sunbeam has been discussed elsewhere, but I really wish there was a way to turn up the temp (beyond max)– then this would be a truly great little machine.

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                            • #15
                              Re: EM6910 vs Lelit PL041 - Time for a new machine...

                              I dont know what the problem has been with your Sunbeams.
                              The ones Ive used have all made great espresso.

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