Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

[DavidW1960]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

Boy, there are some mixed messages going here !!
What is your measurement of "dose" if its not grams ( weight) ?.. volume (cc) maybe ?

Volume of coffee in a full single basket weighs 14g. If I weighed 7g it would half fill the basket.

Basic Barista training  101..
A "standard single shot basket, leveled, untamped, should contain 7 gm approx.

Except that it isnt when I have a full basket tamped at 15kg it weighs 14g. Others here seem to have had a similar experience.

There will be some variation depending on the make, but 14 gms is not a properly dosed single basket !

Says you.

[DavidW1960]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

  This is the problem with "Auto" machines, fixed shot timers and volumes do not allow for the other variables in brewing.
Watch the coffee flow, not the timer or shot glass markings !

The Breville isnt an auto machine either - and the single basket is specified in the manual as 10g.

[DavidW1960]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

I should added that when I re-weigh and get 18g untamped, I am using a double basket. 18-20g is the recommended amount in the booklet and I have found 18g, when tamped, is at the correct level on my tamp edge

Yeah and with the single Im finding its 14g in the single basket that when correctly tamped is at the correct level on the tamp. If I used less the basket would be way too empty.

[blend52]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

There will be some variation depending on the make, but 14 gms is not a properly dosed single basket !

Says you.
[/QUOTE]

Not only me.
you should check a few references for espresso standards..
This is a typical reference from the Espresso Italiano Certification Organisation.
..though a simple Wiki search will tell you the same.

The following are some important
conditions to obtain Espresso Italiano – though these
alone would not be adequate to fulfil the quality
requirements:
• Necessary portion of ground coffee 7 g ± 0,5
• Exit temperature of water from the unit 88°C ± 2°C
• Temperature of the drink in the cup 67°C ± 3°C
• Entry water pressure 9 bar ± 1
• Percolation time 25 seconds ± 2,5 seconds
• Viscosity at 45°C > 1,5 mPa s
• Total fat > 2 mg/ml
• Caffeine < 100 mg/cup
• Millilitres in the cup (including foam) 25 ml ± 2,5

[galumay]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

Yeah and with the single Im finding its 14g in the single basket that when correctly tamped is at the correct level on the tamp. If I used less the basket would be way too empty.

Sounds like there is something crazy going on with the Breville, 7g is a standard single and 14g is a double not a single!

Even allowing for the craze for overdosing, initiated by so called 3rd wave cafes trying to compensate for their under roasted beans, 14g is excessive for a single.

Perhaps part of the confusion is caused by basket design? Maybe they are not meant to be filled? Totally different machine, but my commercial lever machine has deep 55mm baskets that are nearly 8mm from the top when properly dosed for a double.

[peter.wake]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

At the risk, (however slight) of getting hatemail)  I want to enquire as to the actual possibility of fitting a "Rotary" pump to the BES900.

It probably wont be that much longer now that people are talking about it (again). There is always going to be somebody who already has a spare pump in a machine theyre not using and gives it a try. This machine is going to sell plenty of units and with that many sales its odds on that somebody who is used to tinkering with pumps will end up owning one and wont be able to resist.

It will probably take some refinement before a repeatable process that actually improves the machine is developed though. I wont be surprised if two years from now somebody is selling kits to do it - though that will depend on whether it makes a worthwhile difference - and there may be aspects of the design that mean its hard to realise a benefit from a different pump.

Now Ive said that, somebody is probably doing to say that theyve already done it

Its almost certain that someone, somewhere in Breville has already tried it, and they already know what the pros and cons  are. They will also know exactly what should be changed about the machine, for the least cost, to make the most improvement because they did that too. Somebody stuck a limit on the cost and said "this is what we have to build this for and if it costs more we will sell a lot less of them and  make less money" and that was a balanced decision on where they wanted it to be in the market. The internal structure of Breville probably makes a high end machine a difficult thing for them to make money from - thats just how they are set up - but it doesnt mean their engineers didnt think about how they might make one.

Given the way things have gone over the last decade, its starting to get stranger and stranger that Australia doesnt have a high-end domestic espresso machine manufacturer. There is such a dense concentration of coffee expertise here, theres great access to Chinese engineering firms, and for low volume, high markup products, making some components or doing some assembly in Australia is viable too. I dont think Breville wants to compete with La Marzocco - their logistics system would not work with those tiny numbers - but if the BDB pushes the mass-market as a whole upwards, it might prompt somebody else to do it.

[Thirteen13]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

why didnt Breville fit it to begin with then?
Surely the finaly sales price wasnt a huge factor as its a flagship machine and people who want that level of coffee would be prepared to pay the $$$ for the machine

[blend52]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

why didnt Breville fit it to begin with then?
Surely the finaly sales price wasnt a huge factor as its a flagship machine and people who want that level of coffee would be prepared to pay the $$$ for the machine

Breville are a domestic "appliance" manufacturer, with a business strategy based on volume sales.
  The higher you force the price up with better components , more functions etc, the  smaller your potential market becomes , since fewer people are willing or able to buy it.
So, one of the fundamental design parameters that they have to work to, is cost, ..
...if not , i am sure Breville have the resources to build a competitor to the Speedster .... but that is not their end of the market.  :

[Dennis]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

Yes, Im pretty sure I recall they did hook one up to a rotary pump for a giggle.

You guys are dreaming though. Breville didnt anticipate this machine would be as popular as it is, so I dont imagine that they will be chainging anything soon. Re-tooling costs are enormous and I dont see how a rotary pump could or would improve the results in the cup. It will just make the thing heavier and more expensive and would really only be an advantage if plumbed in.

"Standard" measurements of weight and time of extraction have become elastic in judging criteria. Weighing the amount of coffee to put in the filter is probably the last option I would ever consider if trying to improving the quality of the extraction.

[blend52]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

"Standard" measurements of weight and time of extraction have become elastic in judging criteria.  Weighing the amount of coffee to put in the filter is probably the last option I would ever consider if trying to improving the quality of the extraction.

Agreed ,.. however if someone finds that they are using 14gm in a single shot basket, to make a 30/30 pull, i would strongly suspect there is something wrong with the process. :-?

[shapeshifter]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

This is just a follow up on an earlier post of mine (reply #1444 on page 29) which relates to the thin textured espresso that I was getting on my BES900 + Mazzer Mini.

I took my Mini back home yesterday because I wanted to a BES900 vs Duetto comparison.

I made a couple of coffees on the Duetto this morning, and Ive come to the conclusion that the Mazzer Mini is a little gem and that the Duetto  produces thicker, better tasting coffee than my BES900.

Im scratching my head about this one. The grinder isnt the issue in my case and what I want to know is: what part/attribute/feature of a coffee machine actually gives you thick and delicous espresso? eg is it the rotary pump, is the the e61 group head

Im a coffee nerd, so Id love to read comments or your theories behind this.

At the risk, (however slight) of getting hatemail) [smiley=smiley.gif] I want to enquire as to the actual possibility of fitting a "Rotary" pump to the BES900.
Realise that "Shapeshifter" has had a bit of a roasting, (sorry ) for suggesting the DIY pressure mod, (& that this is certainly a step or 10 beyond that).
Nevertheless, with an enquiring mind, (& a background as an engineer) I would be interested in any comments. I need to say that I have not even investigated the practical possibility, (& thus despite my background) it may be not actually be possible.
Nevertheless, I toss it out there for informed comment.
Regards to you All.

Wellllll actually Obsession, my OH and I have already discussed putting a rotary pump on it as well.

To do this weve talked about removing the water tank to install the new pump in there and having the water fed from an external source, like owners of plumbed in machines do without having it permanently plumbed in.

The basket sizes, well as Ive said before the single is actually a double and the double is closer to a triple.

Ive never understood why everyone kept saying throw the single away when it wasnt a single in the way people were thinking normal singles are at 7 grams.

[DavidW1960]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

The basket sizes, well as Ive said before the single is actually a double and the double is closer to a triple.

Ive never understood why everyone kept saying throw the single away when it wasnt a single in the way people were thinking normal singles are at 7 grams.

Well that is certainly my experience.

I am dosing EXACTLY the same way I see Phil doing it in the video and Im using 14g when I weigh it.

[DavidW1960]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

"Standard" measurements of weight and time of extraction have become elastic in judging criteria.  Weighing the amount of coffee to put in the filter is probably the last option I would ever consider if trying to improving the quality of the extraction.

Agreed ,.. however if someone finds that they are using 14gm in a single shot basket, to make a 30/30 pull, i would strongly suspect there is something wrong with the process. :-?

And Id suggest you have no idea what you are talking about. Come back when you have some actual experience with this machine.

[Randy_G.]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

Weighing the amount of coffee to put in the filter is probably the last option I would ever consider if trying to improving the quality of the extraction.

Really? So you think that tamping force is more important than using a consistent dose?

Improving espresso is all about control of variables. In the preparation process, these would include grind, distribution, and dose. Grind and dose are highly interrelated and if you are not controlling both then there is little hope for improvement unless you rely on luck.

[Dennis]

Re: Breville BES900 Dual Boiler - Owners thread

Randy, when did you pretend to become a mind reader? Ive not said anything about tamp pressure.

Are you trying to tell me that every professional barista working in a commercial environ without the use of scales and consistently prepares good espresso is just plain lucky?

Ridiculous.