I'm just going to quickly throw in my 2 cents with a tiny bit of psychoanalysis from your original posting of this thread:
Judging by the fact that you said you want something that you press a button and bam! there's you're coffee - I wouldn't say you're a 'snob' as much as you are just a 'coffee drinker' so that suggests to me that the espresso-making process isn't necessarily something you've been keen to do and is therefore likely to become more of hassel for you later on if you did buy a manual machine.
Also you said "I'm not good with technology" which says to me you're not a big trouble-shooting type which is what manual coffee making is all about - ie. tweaking, troubleshooting, trying this way and that way.
Someone suggested a dual boiler breville which is for sure a great machine if you want to go manual but be prepared to put the time into learning of course. You can't just hit go. It needs learning the processes, plenty of tweaking and plenty of attention/maintenance.
Someone also suggested single boiler machines like the Silvia, or Lelit etc. In my opinion that's the last thing you should get - as it requires in some ways more attention than the dual boiler because you need to not only get the grinding and tamping technique down but you need to learn the machine inside out and get temperatures balanced (PID's make that easier but also much more complicated for someone with no clue already). You also need to learn about priming the boiler and it all becomes complicated.
I think you need a super automatic - no questions. Spend up and you'll get decent coffee instantly which is what you asked for.
Otherwise if you want to dedicate the time to learning a manual machine and then dedicating the time EVERY time you want a coffee (including half an hour for the machine to heat up) then by all means get a manual machine and the results will be beautiful (after a few dozen coffees for getting the hang of it).
Good luck. Luke.
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Kyscoffee has probably turned 41 by now ...
I got the Lelit because of the PID. I don't want to be the only person in my family who makes coffee. My mate's non-PID Silvia is only used by him as his wife gets it wrong as she doesn't know when to pull the shot and steam - he needs a PID. My wife does cause she's done a 20 second "how to read temps" course with me.
I have the "pleasure" of having coffee from a multitude of automatic machines in my line of work and none of them compare to a 1/2 reasonable brew from my home machine. I make a bit of a mess but am getting better (I promise!).
Sponsors help is greatly appreciated. But please remember you play off scratch and there are a bunch of us still playing with a 27 handicap.
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WRT: "...see myself getting very frustrated with a fussy, time-consuming process required to repeatedly nail the moving target that is fine espresso...."
Even this comment.....I am afraid someone has to say, that its not (or doesnt need to be) a fussy time consuming process trying to nail a moving target, at all.......its not a moving target or if it is, it doesnt move very far, and even I dont change my technique all that much with changes in beans / blends. You are right I have a lot of experience......and all that tells me is to KISS!
As some have well said, take a lesson, then practice. Buy good equipment, and sometime down the track the light will go on and you ( they) will "get it".....Or they wont, and they may be better suited to an auto.
Also, people in these forums go round and round knocking auto machines. The fact is, that for a legitimate and large section of the market, autos are all they require.......and there are ordinary autos, just as there are good ones. Not to mention, that most people I know of that complain their (good) autos are not making good coffee, havent "got it' yet either. That is to say, just because its an auto doesnt mean it can adjust and select the correct grind and dose for the beans you tip into the hopper. They need adjusting to get the best result, just like conventional machines, and there is a legitimate place for both types of machine in the market, even if they dont make the "same" coffee. And I didnt even mention that auto machine operators seem to endlessly "tinker with" (reprogram) the proportion of coffee to milk in the cup, the combination of incorrect grind and dose, and then coffee to milk ratio, really destroying their coffee, but resulting in the operators blaming their tools (auto machines) instead of looking within...... The of course, there are those that buy an auto and leave it on the factory default settings ad infinitum, thinking that because its an auto, it should be taking care of all "that stuff" automatically....
The trouble with these sites is the endless discussion on all things technical, and I can tell you from experience there are an aweful lot of clients out there that become very insecure in their equipment & coffee making, because of this. Too many details. Too much info. Too many people talking about technicalities and god shots and whetever else.......and scared yes scared, in case they buy the "wrong" machine (an interesting side phenomenon, where people keep recommending the same things round and round and turning it into a windfall for a very small number of manufacturers, their importers and agents, and the market into a monopoly of very few models.......) Not to mention the endless pro conventional / con auto mentality from those that dont understand the market.
The fact is there are enough machines out there to poke a thousand sticks at, and most of them do their job well enough in the hands of the right operator.s
As long as you keep away from cheap dept store appliances and actually buy a coffee machine, that will suffice and the rest as you guys have noted, is up to you and the level of interest you want to take it to. What's right for one person, is not necessarily right for another!
So for my money (and experience), this is my take:
Decide Budget
Decide Conventional or Auto (or whatever....nextSpresso anyone?)
Dont be CheaP......Buy the best within your budget or just over at a stretch.
Pay the ransom and take the lesson, and repeat as & when necessary and
FORGET the purchase of the discounted sealed carton without after sales service, because that is where many of the problems lie with people that dont "get it"......They bought the wrong "product" with no service, thinking all the pieces would fall into place magically upon their opening the carton, which it doesnt, making it all a lot harder, more time consuming and frustrating, than it ever needed to be......and taking the whole discussion right back to the beginning.
And of course I repeat:
Pay the ransom and take the lesson, and repeat as & when necessary. You dont buy your first car without taking driving lessons.
My advice to the OP, is to take this off forum before it gets any more confusing for him, and visit a professional equipment dealer like one of our sponsors, and allow the pro to guide him through a selection process that will result in the purchase of the most suitable equipment for his individual needs and likes. And explain a lot of what I've just touched on above.
That's what we do every day, help individuals buy what's right for them, and people in these sites shouldnt begrudge a pro that helps them get what they want, from making an honest buck for the good work done.
Hope that helps.Last edited by Fresh_Coffee; 6 August 2012, 11:15 AM.
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Well said, radiopej. I suspect two types here - those who like machines, good coffee, who just 'get it' technically, and those who just want good coffee without the nuts n bolts, why's and how's behind the process. The esoteric interactions of person, machine, physics and chemistry just lose people in the latter group. I have a foot in both camps, since I like the gadgets, pipes and electronics, but I can also see myself getting very frustrated with a fussy, time-consuming process required to repeatedly nail the moving target that is fine espresso. Hence two boilers, one for each job, pipes, wires, thermometers, gauges and switches, bolt together in metal box with badge and stickers. Please follow the instructions. Do not forget about the rest of your life.Originally posted by Radiopej View PostMy new Silvia isn't PIDed or anything, it's at the factory default. I've been making coffee on other machines for a little while now and I did a barista course early on, so I find it fun and easy enough to work with. Admittedly, I was worried before it even arrived due to the temperature surfing pages, but it turned out to be close to the same, with just a few different waiting/warm-up periods.
My mother, on the other hand, isn't used to this. She'd get what to turn on, etc, but as another poster said, she wouldn't have that intuition that you have (or the baby-version of intuition that I have).
The whole point of me suggesting the PID IS because they are a newcomer worried about a machine. They wanted an automatic one, so a manual one that has more variables removed would be closer to their goal. If it's a 40th present and within their budget, it would make their life that little bit easier while still allowing for them to practice.
ADDITION: Original poster, I've never used one, but the Lelit dual boiler seems rather impressive too. Maybe someone on here has one? It also has PID controllers and you don't have to worry about waiting to steam. It's like the Italian Breville Dual Boiler
I also agree with Barry O'Speedwagon - do a training course. I had completely overlooked this, but it would be of most benefit. Perhaps if you do one at JetBlack Espresso (site sponsor), you can also look at their machines and decide what you're after. They'll train you on a decent machine that'll help you see what kind of features you'd like.
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Originally posted by Fresh_Coffee View PostAha.....I see business must be desperately slow in some quarters.
Also I am not in agreement with quote "...Silvia with the PID kit (will avoid all of the "temperature surfing" people keep talking about)..." People keep talking about it because this type of comment keeps popping up, anda proportion of silent / new readers / potential clients then think they will have to buy a silvia with a PID kit because of all this trouble with temp surfing they keep reading about..........its a vicious circle, and I'll bet the greatest majority of silvia owners dont have any problem with it whatsoever, in its standard form.........without PID. The PID may make it easier for newcomers to use, and that's because newcomers havent developed the experience yet......vicious circle.
I dont have any trouble using std Silvia, and I dont really / formally temperature surf as such. I just use good management / operational skills the same as I use for any other coffee espresso machine.
If a silvia owner just doesnt "get it" after a while, he can always retrofit a PID at any time. That is more to do with the operator, than it is to do with silvia.
I have no opinion one way or the other wrt what the OP should buy to suit his individual requirements, however I hope this helps in the decision making process.
My new Silvia isn't PIDed or anything, it's at the factory default. I've been making coffee on other machines for a little while now and I did a barista course early on, so I find it fun and easy enough to work with. Admittedly, I was worried before it even arrived due to the temperature surfing pages, but it turned out to be close to the same, with just a few different waiting/warm-up periods.
My mother, on the other hand, isn't used to this. She'd get what to turn on, etc, but as another poster said, she wouldn't have that intuition that you have (or the baby-version of intuition that I have).
The whole point of me suggesting the PID IS because they are a newcomer worried about a machine. They wanted an automatic one, so a manual one that has more variables removed would be closer to their goal. If it's a 40th present and within their budget, it would make their life that little bit easier while still allowing for them to practice.
ADDITION: Original poster, I've never used one, but the Lelit dual boiler seems rather impressive too. Maybe someone on here has one? It also has PID controllers and you don't have to worry about waiting to steam. It's like the Italian Breville Dual Boiler
I also agree with Barry O'Speedwagon - do a training course. I had completely overlooked this, but it would be of most benefit. Perhaps if you do one at JetBlack Espresso (site sponsor), you can also look at their machines and decide what you're after. They'll train you on a decent machine that'll help you see what kind of features you'd like.
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Without wanting to start a new thread..... I find myself in the same position.
I have trolled this site for the past month..... I have visited some of our sponsors shops (jetblack is relatively close by).... and the more I read, and the more people I speak to the harder and further away a decission seems to be.
I have used my simple Bialetti Brika and a Sunbeam 480 for the past few years, and can produce a pretty pleasing morning shot. We have a Nespresso machine, which the kids love.... but it doesn't do it for me.
I want to go to the next step.... first thought was a Silvia and a Rocky.... then I was introduced to the Lelit.... A Combi.... Or maybe a dual boiler ...
Do I need a new Grinder... probably yes, a K3 ?..... Ummmm a dual boiler seems to make life much simpler (and quicker)..... but my $1,500 budget is flying away.
I need simplicity, reliability, quality..... and don't want to regret buying something in 12 months, and have to jump hoops again. Primary use will be a shot, and possibly a Cap in the morning and entertaining on weekends.......
How do you make a decision? Maybe I just stay with my Bialetti and keep it simple.....
Any thoughts from our sponsors would be welcolme..
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The only one that comes to mind is the Delonghi lattissima. it uses nespresso system.
I think for all other systems you need to froth the milk yourself.
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Thanks, spw. Good training may well be the critical ingredient.Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View PostHi Bern,
It probably depends how the newcomer tries to go about it, and what info they seek (and from whom they seek it). This is just a mug's observation, but it seems to me that a lot of people look for fairly exotic explanations of an ordinary shot, rather learning to grind /dose /tamp in a manner appropriate for their equipment / palate (I think we all do this to an extent...i slip into bad habits sometimes). I don't have a Silvia myself but a friend does, and he did a basic course (using his own machine and grinder) which gave him both the knowledge to dose correctly and the confidence to trust this knowledge. It was his experience in getting up and running and producing great coffee (for me) within about a week (and he only makes 2 a day) that got me interested in the whole shebang.
Cheers
BOSW
Cheers
Bern
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Sorry Neo, but I have to take exception to your statement there.Originally posted by neofelis View PostNot sure what you're implying but the good guys had a bonus offer with the BDB which was a free smart grinder - the machine was $1384 then and I got the price knocked down to $1099 and my free bonus.
It's all about buying power. When a store can buy 20 units of the BDB's then they're outlaying money 20 x 500 stores around australia means breville will give them a huge discount. Also when they can make $700 profit on a TV or Fridge then they can afford to slash prices. (I even got $150 off my new TV and $50 off the new microwave)
It's why the good guys are superior to other retail stores.
Obviously when you walk into a store which ONLY sells coffee products then that's their bread and butter and the only thing they can make profits on - this leads to consumers paying through the nose for goods.
Site sponsors here offer members excellent prices. Most don't sell appliances and that's because the equipment simply doesn't cut it or in the case of this particular machine, the manufacturers are not interested in specialists- rather outlets which can merely move boxes rather than support their clients with service, customisation, advice and training.
Breville have publicly stated that there are no special deals offered to the box retailers. I was in fact told that exact thing face to face on a number of occasions by their key people.
Do you run or work for a Good Guys store? You seem to be plugging them pretty hard.
Cheers
Chris
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Bit harsh on the heavy iron sellers. I haven't seen evidence of price gouging, the local quality market here appears quite competitive. Obviously a retail buying group such as GG will always compete on price, but only with mass-produced plastic - namely your Breville kit, which explains why you scored well. These groups simply don't go near low-volume, high-cost specialty manufacturers, such as Rocket, VBM, Diadema etc, because the products have small turnovers. That leaves boutique retailers, with high cost of goods sold, low unit turnover and necessary wide margin to cover business overheads. That's also why you don't see big discounts from RRP. Your $1k Breville will be lying buried at the tip in five years. A $2k tin steamer will still be going strong in 20 years. I'm surprised at having to state the obvious. This discussion has been done to death here and elsewhere and applies to all manufactures goods.Originally posted by neofelis View PostIt's all about buying power ... It's why the good guys are superior to other retail stores.
Obviously when you walk into a store which ONLY sells coffee products then that's their bread and butter and the only thing they can make profits on - this leads to consumers paying through the nose for goods.
Bern
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Hi Bern,
It probably depends how the newcomer tries to go about it, and what info they seek (and from whom they seek it). This is just a mug's observation, but it seems to me that a lot of people look for fairly exotic explanations of an ordinary shot, rather learning to grind /dose /tamp in a manner appropriate for their equipment / palate (I think we all do this to an extent...i slip into bad habits sometimes). I don't have a Silvia myself but a friend does, and he did a basic course (using his own machine and grinder) which gave him both the knowledge to dose correctly and the confidence to trust this knowledge. It was his experience in getting up and running and producing great coffee (for me) within about a week (and he only makes 2 a day) that got me interested in the whole shebang.
Cheers
BOSW
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Makes sense, given that you are highly experienced and know the espresso-making process, indeed art, inside out on every style of machine - single boiler, hx, double boiler. Your knowledge and experience have merged with intuition - the sign of mastery in any skill or art, and that takes years. You understand the relationship between pressure and temperature and the effect this has on taste. I for one don't. So I think you may be taking such mastery for granted by assuming others possess the intuitive understanding you have acquired over years. The fact is they don't, and that's why so many frustrated aspirants post here, describing their struggles.Originally posted by Fresh_Coffee View PostAha.....I see business must be desperately slow in some quarters.
Also I am not in agreement with quote "...Silvia with the PID kit (will avoid all of the "temperature surfing" people keep talking about)..." People keep talking about it because this type of comment keeps popping up, anda proportion of silent / new readers / potential clients then think they will have to buy a silvia with a PID kit because of all this trouble with temp surfing they keep reading about..........its a vicious circle, and I'll bet the greatest majority of silvia owners dont have any problem with it whatsoever, in its standard form.........without PID. The PID may make it easier for newcomers to use, and that's because newcomers havent developed the experience yet......vicious circle.
I dont have any trouble using std Silvia, and I dont really / formally temperature surf as such. I just use good management / operational skills the same as I use for any other coffee espresso machine.
If a silvia owner just doesnt "get it" after a while, he can always retrofit a PID at any time. That is more to do with the operator, than it is to do with silvia.
I have no opinion one way or the other wrt what the OP should buy to suit his individual requirements, however I hope this helps in the decision making process.
A general question to all who have travelled, are travelling the path may reveal something. Assume a good quality, no-frills, single-boiler machine (Silvia), good grinder and fresh coffee, in the hands of a newly trained, enthusiastic novice. How long (hours, weeks, months, years) before they are producing consistently good pours, and how difficult is the process?
I realise everyone is a bit different and has preferences. Even so, if the basic understanding and skills are so easily acquired, why do so many posts here detail painful struggles, failed extractions, upgrade anxt, aversions to perfectly adequate machines etc?
Bern
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Not sure what you're implying but the good guys had a bonus offer with the BDB which was a free smart grinder - the machine was $1384 then and I got the price knocked down to $1099 and my free bonus.
It's all about buying power. When a store can buy 20 units of the BDB's then they're outlaying money 20 x 500 stores around australia means breville will give them a huge discount. Also when they can make $700 profit on a TV or Fridge then they can afford to slash prices. (I even got $150 off my new TV and $50 off the new microwave)
It's why the good guys are superior to other retail stores.
Obviously when you walk into a store which ONLY sells coffee products then that's their bread and butter and the only thing they can make profits on - this leads to consumers paying through the nose for goods.
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Originally posted by neofelis View PostGet a Breville Dual Boiler for $1099 + free smart grinder.
Ha ha ha ... Talk them into giving you terms - tell them you'll take a home cinema system as well. Reminds me of my old neighbour, mate and lurk merchant Lino who had Radio Rentals years ago in Adelaide. "Gift offer. Buy a fridge, get a motor mower free, no payments for 3 months". Lino stores the fridge in his shed, didn't even break open the box. Four months and no payments later, they turn up to repossess the goods. He shows them to the fridge, and they ask for the lawn mower. "No, no, no. That's free. A gift, look", and he points to the half-page newspaper cutting he'd taped to the fridge. He stood his ground, and 20 years later, he's still trimming his lawns with that Victor. Worse still, he'd put his large, extended family and most of the local parish up to it as well. When the parish priest found out, many of the mowers were sold to help fund a water-filled grotto dedicated to the Virgin Mary. I laughed so hard when he told he told me. Don't recall ever seeing a Radio Rentals ad like that again.
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I concur that the Breville gear is definitely going to be capable of producing a better result than any of the superautos (in the right hands).
One thing to keep in mind is cost of ownership is this gear may be part of a progression. With many appliances, resale is poor or non-existent as heavy discounting erodes the value of the gear and new purchasers often want the security of a warranty. If you pay $1000 and will never get a buyer, cost of ownership is $1000. On the other hand, respected gear- Silvia et al retains it's value well and is easily sold. Ultimately, it comes down to what you want.
Excellent to see that the retailers are only losing $300 on the deal as the wholesale price on this gear is never discounted. Should be great for profits! ;-)Last edited by TC; 5 August 2012, 12:08 PM.
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