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  • Shorter shot = more roast flavor?

    I like Americanos. At the coffee shop they have a nice roast flavor. But on my Silva the flavor is more sweet and chocolate like(no matter what the bean) and less roast flavor. I notice it grind the beans to where the shot is short...like 17 seconds there is more of roast flavor and less of a sweet flavor. Why is this?

  • #2
    Shorter shot = more roast flavor?

    Hey mate, What do you mean by roast flavour?

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    • #3
      While we're at it....what exactly do you mean by a 17 second shot? Do you mean the shot starts to go blonde 17 seconds after you start the pump? How are you determining when to stop the shot?

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      • #4
        What's an americano? Hot water instead of milk?

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        • #5
          Shorter shot = more roast flavor?

          An Americano is another word for a long black. Some may argue that an Americano is the shot poured on top of hot water and a long black the other way but in taste, they are the exact same thing.

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          • #6
            [QUOTE=mwcalder05;478060]An Americano is another word for a long black. Some may argue that an Americano is the shot poured on top of hot water and a long black the other way/QUOTE]

            ...While others may argue it's the other way around

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            • #7
              Shorter shot = more roast flavor?

              Some say an Americano is served with cream too

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              • #8
                Re the OPs question, if you're talking about stopping the shot early (17s), I think this would move the balance of flavor more to the bitters. It would be a very ristretto style of shot.

                You can also try up dosing and/or tighter grind both of which have the potential to make a similar change. I prefer to use dose/grind rather than cut the shot shorter than 25s.

                I think it's fair to make the general statement that you can usually get at least a few different cups out of a single bean manipulating these variables.

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                • #9
                  An americano, as served in most cafes, would be a long black with milk/cream on top, but its an ambiguous word, and most baristas will want to clarify what you mean by it. Putting hot water on top of the espresso shot is generally considered a bad idea: it ruins the crema and depending on the temperature of the water will burn the shot.

                  The way that I understand it is that sugars and acids are more soluble at lower temperatures than lipids (oils, which are the bitters), so at the beginning of the shot, as the puck is at a lower temperature, you'll be extracting these less soluble compounds which should yield a sweeter and more acidic shot. By running the shot longer you'll be extracting more of the oils of the coffee.

                  I'd always thought that the lighter the roast, the more the characteristics of the bean itself will shine through, and the darker roasts tend to accentuate the flavours of the roasting process, but I think that the process of roasting produces lipids, which is why darker roasts often appear more oily. A darker roast will have less sugars and more oils. These oils (again, this might be wrong) would lend themselves to more of a "roast flavour".

                  So, if oils extract last in the shot, and the roast flavour is created in these oils, then I think the roast flavour wouldn't be as present in a ristretto as in an espresso.

                  If I'm right here, then the "roast flavour" you're getting -I presume you mean the bitterness- would be caused by the coarser grind you select in order to produce a shorter shot lending itself more to channelling.

                  I used to adjust my flow rate by varying dose/tamp as much as grind, but for the sake of consistency and to avoid channelling or choking the shot I now stick to a repeatable dose/tamp combination, aiming for a certain flow rate by changing the grind, and then pull the cup at different times in the shot in order to change the flavour.

                  Hope this helps.
                  Last edited by mouthfeel; 23 August 2012, 04:38 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mwcalder05 View Post
                    An Americano is another word for a long black. Some may argue that an Americano is the shot poured on top of hot water and a long black the other way but in taste, they are the exact same thing.
                    Interesting when I did my coffee course they said to put the hot water in the cup first so the crema didn't get disturbed when you pull the shot.

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                    • #11
                      Shorter shot = more roast flavor?

                      Originally posted by DavidW1960 View Post
                      Interesting when I did my coffee course they said to put the hot water in the cup first so the crema didn't get disturbed when you pull the shot.
                      That's what I do regardless of whether an Americano or Long Black is ordered. It looks much better this way because the crema would be bruised quite considerably in the other order. Anyway, back to the topic.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mouthfeel View Post
                        An americano, as served in most cafes, would be a long black with milk/cream on top, but its an ambiguous word, and most baristas will want to clarify what you mean by it. Putting hot water on top of the espresso shot is generally considered a bad idea: it ruins the crema and depending on the temperature of the water will burn the shot.

                        The way that I understand it is that sugars and acids are more soluble at lower temperatures than lipids (oils, which are the bitters), so at the beginning of the shot, as the puck is at a lower temperature, you'll be extracting these less soluble compounds which should yield a sweeter and more acidic shot. By running the shot longer you'll be extracting more of the oils of the coffee.

                        I'd always thought that the lighter the roast, the more the characteristics of the bean itself will shine through, and the darker roasts tend to accentuate the flavours of the roasting process, but I think that the process of roasting produces lipids, which is why darker roasts often appear more oily. A darker roast will have less sugars and more oils. These oils (again, this might be wrong) would lend themselves to more of a "roast flavour".

                        So, if oils extract last in the shot, and the roast flavour is created in these oils, then I think the roast flavour wouldn't be as present in a ristretto as in an espresso.

                        If I'm right here, then the "roast flavour" you're getting -I presume you mean the bitterness- would be caused by the coarser grind you select in order to produce a shorter shot lending itself more to channelling.

                        I used to adjust my flow rate by varying dose/tamp as much as grind, but for the sake of consistency and to avoid channelling or choking the shot I now stick to a repeatable dose/tamp combination, aiming for a certain flow rate by changing the grind, and then pull the cup at different times in the shot in order to change the flavour.

                        Hope this helps.
                        Would be good of dman777 to confirm exactly what was meant.

                        In the mean time, I disagree with "shorter shot, more acidic" and therefore I challenge you all to compare a 20s 2oz shot with a 45s 1.5oz shot!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by insomnispresso View Post
                          Would be good of dman777 to confirm exactly what was meant.

                          In the mean time, I disagree with "shorter shot, more acidic" and therefore I challenge you all to compare a 20s 2oz shot with a 45s 1.5oz shot!!
                          I think a longer, tighter, shot would yield a 'fuller' extraction. So whilst it might be more acidic than a 20s shot, it would also be significantly more bitter, whereas the 20s shot would lack the bitterness. When I say more acidic, I mean more acidic than bitter.

                          That said, I'll have a go when I jump on the machine tomorrow. Thanks for the stimulus.

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