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Sunbeam EM6910 Screaming / Too Much Air In Milk

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  • #16
    Originally posted by MrJack View Post
    Surely he is not suggesting to leave the steam on while you lift the wand out? That's a great way to make a mess of your milk and your bench.
    Mr Jack - the whole point of my post was to try & correct the abject stupidity in the Sunbeam manual which is causing so many newbie users to trash their steam wands via a buildup of milk solids inside their "single nozzle hole" wands. The wording in the manual bears the stench of O H & S & risk management all over it. If you prefer to call it "dumbing it down so we cannot be sued" I would also agree. I also noted that the 6910 has a single nozzle hole, the 4 hole nozzles have a completely different dynamic (and an unfortunate tendency to scald milk unless a really good barista is at the helm).

    My secondary point was that as long as you remove the wand along the line of the steam flow it will not splash & scald you in a 6910 anyway. BTW, it will not even mess up your bench in a 6910. I even stated that you will trash the microfoam, so it is not recommended by me (or any other sane person). That easily demonstrated fact makes the whole O H & S thing irrelevant anyway, as only a complete idiot with no concept of using an espresso machine would remove the wand in any other way (cue to the person who wrote that part of the Sunbeam manual...).

    Any barista worthy of the name would have been trained the same way I was (I hope) so when you hear the steam pressure start to drop you remove the wand along the line of steam flow. If you get your timing correct you do not even leave a mark on the surface of the microfoam as the steam pressure hits zero at the same time the wand reaches the surface. Basic "know your machine 101".

    As a side note, I expect people to read my posts with due care, as a quick glance may lead to erroneous conclusions.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by TampIt View Post
      As a side note, I expect people to read my posts with due care, as a quick glance may lead to erroneous conclusions.
      a lot of people dont do this unfortunately, they get bored and stop reading. thats why a tl;dr can be included which would be hard in this case due to the large amount of information.
      i'll be telling a friend of mine who owns a 6910 (which i had to extensively repair due to terrible work done by a supposed Sunbeam service centre) to take care when frothing milk so this sort of thing wont happen

      Comment


      • #18
        Hi Noidle22

        Due care: I agree. I was brought up to believe that it was disrespectful to not read anything technical in full before commenting. Perhaps that is just me showing my age.

        Friends 6910: Journeyman's http://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-eq...tml#post508604 has details of my warranty repair (plus a whole pile of earlier info about 6910's). Probably worth a quick look as there are two different 6910's, amongst other things.
        All the best.
        Tampit

        Comment


        • #19
          My sincere apologies for any disrespect; I believe it should be given when earned.

          Having skim read your original post again (this time after more an 3 hours sleep) I can see you weren't suggesting that the wand be removed with the steam still at full flow.

          I cant say I ever had anything like 5mL of milk leave the wand when purging it on my BES820, even after removing it after the steam coming to a complete stop.
          I have definitely had milk all over the bench the one time I tried turning the steam on prior to lifting the jug, when I was working with one hand.

          One of my mentors once pointed out something very useful; if you want your technical writing to communicate your point effectively, avoid waffle.

          Perhaps you could provide an executive summary at the beginning of your reports, so that those who are less competent technically (or bore easily) will be able read the important information without having to read the ranting diatribe?
          Last edited by MrJack; 1 September 2013, 05:46 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MrJack View Post
            Perhaps you could provide an executive summary at the beginning of your reports, so that those who are less competent technically will be able to point out all the errors in the important information without having to read the ranting diatribe?

            Oh, and sincere apologies in advance for any disrespect; I believe it should be given when earned.

            I cant say I ever had anything like 5mL of milk leave the wand when purging it on my BES820...
            Must admit I wonder whether its worth the effort of replying to some of these posts, and then having to correct the assumptions that are made when people misconstrue what is meant (primarily through lack of knowledge)

            Then there are the endless rants, the reason people get bored and stop reading is simply because the posts are long, boring and full of gobbledy gook.

            If you want people to do you the courtesy of reading your complete post I suggest you keep it way under the 1000 and 1500 word posts seen earlier in this thread.

            Short sharp and to the point will hold a readers attention, I'll stop reading a diatribe at the first sign the poster is out of his/her depth.

            PS
            Re this quote,

            "I cant say I ever had anything like 5mL of milk leave the wand when purging"

            I've owned a few machines and have never had so much as a drop of milk appear when purging, shut the valve while the steam is still flowing, it simply cant draw milk into the wand.

            If your running the machine out of steam then you have another problem.

            Comment


            • #21
              Mr Jack
              Your "sincere apologies" accepted in full. I am also guilty of snafu's from time to time due to too much work / too little sleep. Let he who is without sin...

              I guess it annoyed me when any 6910 owner has the words "twin thermoblock system" implanted in their memory forever via the front of the grouphead.

              In my defence:-
              I have at least 6 "newbie to espresso machine" friends who follow the manual precisely turn up with clogged steam wands. Two of these are high end scientists who test equipment themselves.
              I join up to CS and see the same problem is all too common.
              I write a "why" & a "how to do it correctly" for newbies.
              The first post tells me I am dreaming and it would contaminate the non-existent boiler.
              The next one (yours) is way out of context.
              Conclusion: "Must admit I wonder whether its worth the effort of replying to some of these posts, and then having to correct the assumptions that are made when people misconstrue what is meant (primarily through lack of knowledge)" (courtesy of Yelta).
              Anyway, if I have not helped a newbie to understand what is going on in their 6910, I have just wasted far too much of everyone's precious time.
              All the best.
              TampIt.

              Comment


              • #22
                No worries. If you have the facilities, perhaps produce a short video and put it in a new thread? Probably easier for a "newbie to espresso machines" to digest.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I, for one, have learned a lot from TampIt's posts. While many here have contributed either brief adjustments to my views or sometimes a considerable change in my ability/technique, TampIt's posts have been informative and useful specifically to the equipment I use. He has given me reasons for why some of the issues I have found have occurred. For example, before his explanations I had no idea the mix'n'match of old versions of 6910's with new versions would even exist, let alone have a detrimental effect on my coffee.

                  I do understand those of us with EM6910's receive a rather disdainful reaction from those who can afford $1500+ machines, but for most of us it is all we have, and to find someone knowledgeable in OUR machines who is willing to spend the time to write informative and amusing posts is a welcome discovery.

                  Personally I never found his posts too long, and I am unaware of any wrong assumptions I might have so far - I guess I will find them (if any) when I get to stripping down my machine. I don't recall seeing any 'ranting diatribe' either, just posts that could possibly be shortened down to dry technical manual style but which I think are the better for the personality and raconteur approach we see from TampIt.

                  Then again, probably I write in similar vein so maybe I wouldn't see the need for putting people to sleep with manual-ese they will never finish without taking a sleep in the middle.

                  I also haven't seen any corrections posted about the content. It is unlikely one will see drops of milk coming from the wand when it is started for exactly the reasons given by TampIt - the wand almost instantly bakes the milk onto the interior surface. The idea of the cessation of steam causing milk to be sucked in IF the wand is left in the milk till everything stops (as per the manual) is basic fluidics and was something I was taught in Barista course - timing the removal of the wand is one of the skills he worked on to ensure we DIDN'T get milk up the wand.

                  I realise the forum is called coffeeSNOBS, but I thought that was because we all like to make the best coffee we can rather than use pods or instant, not because we all had to be rich enough to have professional level machines on our kitchen benches.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Journeyman View Post
                    I do understand those of us with EM6910's receive a rather disdainful reaction from those who can afford $1500+ machines, .........
                    The interesting thing about this forum is that it attracts people across all equipment price points. On a quick look at the number of views in each equipment sub category, (sub $500,$500-$1500 etc) it seems that by far the largest number of views are in the lower price categories. I'd suggest the threads on machines such as those on the EM6910 provide lots of good reading for a large number of interested people and is a much appreciated source of information. It seems that some people forget they once travelled down that same confusing path when they started out on their coffee discovery tour. Some may have been lucky enough to have a knowledgable mentor on hand to guide them but most probably learn by trial and error and turn to forums such as CS for answers they can't find on their own.

                    If you're interested in checking for yourself, click on one of the sub-forum categories at the main page, say for instance "Brewing Equipment Midrange ($500-$1500)". Click on "Views" where it displays "Replies/Views" in the green shaded title row. This sorts by the number of views a thread has had from the most to least. Interesting reading. When finished, click on "Last post by" once then after the sort, a second time to restore the sort showing the latest posts at the top.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by CafeLotta View Post
                      It seems that some people forget they once travelled down that same confusing path when they started out on their coffee discovery tour. Some may have been lucky enough to have a knowledgable mentor on hand to guide them but most probably learn by trial and error and turn to forums such as CS for answers they can't find on their own.
                      Have never lost sight of the fact that I was once in a similar position.

                      Started my espresso journey over 13 years ago with a very modest Krups machine, in those days for the home barista it was pretty much all trial and error along with a bit of research, the process is not overly difficult.

                      Obviously when I discovered Coffee Snobs my knowledge of things coffee expanded greatly, however I learned a lot more by reading posts by experienced members than I ever did by pounding out missives on a keyboard and letting the world know just how abysmal my own grasp of the subject was.

                      Now it seems the process is buy a cheap machine, use it for a few days without much success, discover and sign up with Coffee Snobs, ask a few questions, pick up a few tips, pull a few reasonable shots then immediately start posting as a self professed guru.

                      “When people talk, listen completely. Most people never listen.”
                      Ernest Hemingway

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                      • #26
                        I'm not sure someone with 40 years professional experience could be called a self-professed guru. TampIt did explain in his 1st post or so just why he finally joined the forums.

                        I was fortunate - I found CS almost on the day I got my machine; maybe just before, 'cos I was looking to see if I should get a thermoblock or boiler machine and there quite a few sites I checked. I came on here like many others, all thrilled that I could finally make a good coffee but trying to work out why my EM0480 wouldn't grind. I got a lot of help (& a number of sarky comments) during that time and eventually found an answer.

                        Also during those first few weeks it was made quite clear a lowly 6910 owner shouldn't be enthusiastic about his coffee because almost everything else was better. Since then I have tried to appear in 6910 threads to give newcomers maybe a less abrupt intro to the forums.

                        I began my espresso journey back in the early naughties and promptly gave it up when I couldn't make a coffee even as good as Moccona so I have a fine appreciation for how far I have come thanks to CS members.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Journeyman View Post
                          I also haven't seen any corrections posted about the content. It is unlikely one will see drops of milk coming from the wand when it is started for exactly the reasons given by TampIt - the wand almost instantly bakes the milk onto the interior surface. The idea of the cessation of steam causing milk to be sucked in IF the wand is left in the milk till everything stops (as per the manual) is basic fluidics and was something I was taught in Barista course - timing the removal of the wand is one of the skills he worked on to ensure we DIDN'T get milk up the wand.
                          Apart from not answering the original question, there are definitely a few comments which are misleading and don't really add any value.
                          Speaking generally, I have an issue with explanations which are presented as absolute fact, but which aren't (queue misused technical term here); even when done with the best intentions.
                          Unless someone presses for justification (which doesn't always end well) these 'facts' can add to the misconceptions and pseudoscience which seems to become entrenched on the Internet.
                          While not an espresso machine expert I know enough about thermodynamics, fluid mechanics and chemistry to spot potentially dubious statements or read between the lines, but many people do not.

                          As such I would rather see more questions and discussion (which make people think and question for themselves). Long authoritative posts seem to inhibit this.

                          I've learned that sometimes, someone (even sometimes someone on the Internet) will know something I don't, and that getting bent out of shape about it when they point it out doesnt teach you anything.

                          Apologies for taking the already off topic thread, further off topic.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            @MrJack - By 'original question' do you mean the OP's about what might be causing the issues, or yours? (Surely he is not suggesting to leave the steam on while you lift the wand out? That's a great way to make a mess of your milk and your bench.)

                            near as I can see his first post addressed the possible causes as he saw them for the issues of the OP and yours was carefully addressed with his instructions about drawing the wand out after the sound of steam dropped AND to time it so the steam pressure dropped to zero just after the nozzle leaves the milk.

                            It is definitely the case that you can draw the wand out of the milk while steam is still exiting the nozzle, (even when there is considerable pressure if the withdrawal is quick enough) although to do it at full pressure would splutter the hot milk around - which is the point he made about Sunbeam PC madness and teaching new users to overcorrect in a way that, from his experience, leads to milk entering the tip and wand.

                            From previous posts of yours it is apparent you also know 6910's, but I don't see where anything I learned from you being contradicted by what TampIt says. The only point I can see where your description of his posts might apply (potentially dubious statements) has to do with milk entering the nozzle, but so far the only rationale for the situation has come from him (& my barista teacher's comments) to back the idea it CAN occur. If you and others consider that it doesn't occur, I'd be curious as to what physics would prevent it happening and what explanation I might find for the dirty brown water I collected when my steam hiccuped and burped and suddenly gave much more powerful steam.

                            From my PoV it appears TampIt is backing almost everything he says with personal experience and the logic he uses to come to his conclusions, while the other side of things seems mainly to be put off by his writing style, with comments about his content being made without either backup or explanation of why TampIt might be wrong.

                            I would be happy to know where you and others think he is factually wrong, or where you think he is making unfounded or dubious claims as I am about to spend some money on the basis of his posts in the hope of improving both the quality and consistency of my coffee making.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Yes Journeyman, the original post, asking about the high pitched squeal. My first question was directed at someone else.

                              While I agree, Tampit has provided some very detailed information; it clearly took some time to write those posts. If you really want examples of things I found questionable:
                              - suggesting people clean thier equipment with toluene and methylated spirits
                              - the implication that lactose 'acid' (a sugar) build-up might be removed with bicarb (what about the proteins etc.?)
                              - negative pressure
                              - how can a steam wand which has cooled enough to 'pull a vacuum', be hot enough to contact dry milk (which would require boiling).
                              - the assurance that even full steam pressure will not result in splashed milk if you get the angle right.
                              - suggesting that purging the steam wand isnt required when you are only steaming a small amount of milk (no justification given - I personally prefer not yo fill my milk jug with water)
                              - the implication that hydrofluoric acid in tap water is the killer of boilers here in WA (but not in the east), because it can attack gold. (Ifrom another thread).

                              Now, I'm not saying that all of the observations are necessary invalid, just that the explanations are iffy.

                              You can remove a steam wand after the steam has stopped, and not slurp an ungodly amount of milk into the wand.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Yelta View Post
                                “When people talk, listen completely. Most people never listen.”

                                Ernest Hemingway
                                And add to that - Confucius say "Learning without thought is labor lost; thought without learning is perilous".

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