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  • #31
    I can share the eBay user id of the italian shop should anyone interested

    Comment


    • #32
      All good and well guys. We've all been there and done that so most of this stuff can be appended to one of the other self import threads. For those who think that Italia has anything to do with Australia, you have the facts. Maybe you saved. Good thing. You showroom and when things go pop, you expect support from the very people you thumb your noses at.

      What amazes me about this whole discussion is that the true "experts" are all too frequently keyboard jockeys with experience of one, perhaps 2 machines. We look in self-imports and frequently marvel at the differences when compared to the gear we know. Adaptor? Go get a plug fitted and then come back.

      I see us rapidly heading towards a 2 tier service and support system here. You support us and we support you. You're the expert? No worries, what's your credit card number, because advice is going to cost you seeing as you're doing us a favour.

      A bloke well known to many of us here (very early sponsor) received legal advice that said that if you touch a grey import, you assume liability for it. If that's the case, it's going to cost when something goes wrong- and plenty. Alternately, you pick up your own pieces.

      Just sayin'.

      Comment


      • #33
        I thought it was only Brevilles and Sunbeams that went pop, if I recall a previous thread correctly

        Comment


        • #34
          Here's a summary of what is legal and what is NOT as pertaining to current rules and regulations in some states of Oz. Worthwhile using as safety guide. Victoria have their own specific reg's so checking with them first is a good idea...

          NSW Fair Trading insists: “An electrical licence is required before any electrical wiring work can be undertaken in NSW, regardless of the cost of the work and regardless of whether the work is residential, commercial or industrial.”

          Under their definition electrical work encompasses the manufacturing, constructing, installing, testing, maintaining, repairing, altering, removing or replacing of any electrical equipment.

          That pretty much leaves you with replacing lightbulbs.

          Queensland has penalties of up to $100,000 or two years imprisonment if illegal work results in serious injury or death. The maximum penalty for multiple deaths is $200,000 or three years imprisonment.

          The SA government website states electricians are responsible for work commencing at the point of supply, up to and including:

          the electrical wiring on the consumer's property from the main switchboard to the building
          wiring within the building to the electrical appliance
          fixed electrical appliances.

          Under Queensland’s Electrical Safety Act 2002, forbidden tasks include:

          installing a new power point.
          replacing a light switch.
          replacing a batten holder with a new light fitting.
          repairing an appliance such as a heater.
          altering the location of an existing power point.
          replacing a light fitting with a ceiling fan.
          constructing an extension lead.
          replacing a plug on the end of a lead.

          Acceptable tasks for the home owner are:

          replacing a drive belt in a washing machine.
          cutting openings for, but not connecting, air-conditioning units.
          fitting, but not connecting, an electric wall oven in a kitchen cabinet.

          You may also be able to:

          rewire old-style fuses.
          install garden lighting and pond pumps.
          install battery-operated smoke detectors.

          On top of the penalties for injury or death, The Queensland government website also has the chilling warning that "DIY electrical work is regarded as unlicensed electrical work, which is illegal and has penalties of up to $40,000 for individuals.” Gulp.

          The QLD government website notes that only safety switches save lives. Circuit breakers and surge protectors protect appliances not people.


          Mal.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Dimal View Post
            Here's a summary of what is legal and what is NOT as pertaining to current rules and regulations in some states of Oz. Worthwhile using as safety guide. Victoria have their own specific reg's so checking with them first is a good idea...

            NSW Fair Trading insists: “An electrical licence is required before any electrical wiring work can be undertaken in NSW, regardless of the cost of the work and regardless of whether the work is residential, commercial or industrial.”

            Under their definition electrical work encompasses the manufacturing, constructing, installing, testing, maintaining, repairing, altering, removing or replacing of any electrical equipment.

            That pretty much leaves you with replacing lightbulbs.

            Queensland has penalties of up to $100,000 or two years imprisonment if illegal work results in serious injury or death. The maximum penalty for multiple deaths is $200,000 or three years imprisonment.

            The SA government website states electricians are responsible for work commencing at the point of supply, up to and including:

            the electrical wiring on the consumer's property from the main switchboard to the building
            wiring within the building to the electrical appliance
            fixed electrical appliances.

            Under Queensland’s Electrical Safety Act 2002, forbidden tasks include:

            installing a new power point.
            replacing a light switch.
            replacing a batten holder with a new light fitting.
            repairing an appliance such as a heater.
            altering the location of an existing power point.
            replacing a light fitting with a ceiling fan.
            constructing an extension lead.
            replacing a plug on the end of a lead.

            Acceptable tasks for the home owner are:

            replacing a drive belt in a washing machine.
            cutting openings for, but not connecting, air-conditioning units.
            fitting, but not connecting, an electric wall oven in a kitchen cabinet.

            You may also be able to:

            rewire old-style fuses.
            install garden lighting and pond pumps.
            install battery-operated smoke detectors.

            On top of the penalties for injury or death, The Queensland government website also has the chilling warning that "DIY electrical work is regarded as unlicensed electrical work, which is illegal and has penalties of up to $40,000 for individuals.” Gulp.

            The QLD government website notes that only safety switches save lives. Circuit breakers and surge protectors protect appliances not people.


            Mal.

            Thanks for this Mal.

            No wonder there's so many sparkies driving Maloo utes around. LOL

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
              Thanks for this Mal.

              No wonder there's so many sparkies driving Maloo utes around. LOL
              Sparkies???

              Have you checked out how well your local plumbers are getting on - Leaves the average sparky for dead...

              Mal.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Dimal View Post
                Sparkies???

                Have you checked out how well your local plumbers are getting on - Leaves the average sparky for dead...

                Mal.
                LOL....too true....just as well some of us live on the edge and change tap washers ourselves....and on occasion we might even take the law into our own hands and change a lamp shade on occasion

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post

                  A bloke well known to many of us here (very early sponsor) received legal advice that said that if you touch a grey import, you assume liability for it. If that's the case, it's going to cost when something goes wrong- and plenty.
                  As soon as a repairer accepts any machine, grey import or not, they are liable for it. Plain and simple Australian consumer Law. If they stuff up a machine, they are liable for it. The fact that it is a grey import is irrelevant. That is just an excuse for poor workmanship. Machines sold in Europe must also meet the Euro spec, so this endless babble is tiring. There are espresso machine repairers who restore old vintage machines, which certainly do not meet current Electrical standards. They too are liable if said machine proves to be faulty. If it is fine to fix vintage machines, then the same argument must apply to "grey" imports.
                  Personally I hate the term, "grey import". Truth is, it is a global economy and you are free to buy from wherever you want.
                  If Australian importers want to differentiate themselves from European machines, they should have said machine rebranded, or badged as an Aussie version, to their spec.

                  Saying that machines designed to work safely in europe will not work safely in Australia is a load of crap.

                  If you really want to get technical about Australian standards, then go and check the TPS (eg 2core+e 2.5mm2 flat) used in most modern houses. Have the thickness of the insulation measured and compared to the Australian standard. You may be surprised at the result. Good old Australian "qualified and trained" electricians installing the cheapest product they can get their hands on. Though safe enough for 240volts, it does not meet the standard.

                  If an espresso machine repairer cannot repair a grey import, then they should not be touching a normal import either. If they should choose not to repair a grey import, and turn away business, then that is their business decision. A retailer does not have to price match, they are able to sell products and services at whatever price they want to.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
                    If you really want to get technical about Australian standards, then go and check the TPS (eg 2core+e 2.5mm2 flat) used in most modern houses. Have the thickness of the insulation measured and compared to the Australian standard. You may be surprised at the result. Good old Australian "qualified and trained" electricians installing the cheapest product they can get their hands on. Though safe enough for 240volts, it does not meet the standard.
                    Maybe true for some Bosco, but was never my experience in any of the industries I worked in over the years mate. Big generalisation I think...

                    Mal.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
                      Machines sold in Europe must also meet the Euro spec, so this endless babble is tiring.

                      Truth is, it is a global economy and you are free to buy from wherever you want.

                      If Australian importers want to differentiate themselves from European machines, they should have said machine rebranded, or badged as an Aussie version, to their spec.

                      Saying that machines designed to work safely in europe will not work safely in Australia is a load of crap.

                      If an espresso machine repairer cannot repair a grey import, then they should not be touching a normal import either. If they should choose not to repair a grey import, and turn away business, then that is their business decision. A retailer does not have to price match, they are able to sell products and services at whatever price they want to.

                      Gentlemen, I believe Bosco has hit the nail (or nails as it were) on the head. We are indeed in a global economy.

                      Do the sponsors buy every single item which they use to run their businesses from Australian businesses? Spare parts, consumables, stationary, labels, etc etc. I would suggest that they should be buying stationary for example from their local newsagent if their own principles were to be applied.

                      We should rejoice as an economy at the prospect of all these dodgy grey imports arriving on our shores.

                      - Sponsors will benefit by having thriving service departments, and I'm sure the margins to be made on repair work is much greater than the margins to be made on the sale of machines.

                      - Our Sparky brethren will build thriving businesses making house-calls to change out illegal plugs and other alleged nasties

                      - Holden dealerships will flourish, what with a spike in the sales of Maloo utes 'n all

                      And sure enough, if enough consumers are dissatisfied, then they, the consumers, will start spreading the word by posting tales of woe on forums such as this, and eventually businesses bringing in grey imports will cease to exist and the natural forces of the global economy will bring everything into equilibrium once again.

                      In the meantime, the consumer will choose whether to buy locally and pay a bit extra for that piece of mind for a local warranty, or whether to take a risk and pocket some savings and hope that everything is fine, knowing that they have some money in their pocket to be able to pay for some warranty work if it is required.

                      Have a great day gentlemen.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by JetBlack_Espresso View Post
                        Every CI machine we have worked on had a European plug with an Australian adapter. Having a chunky adapter on the end of a European specced machine isn't necessarily the end of the world unless it's installed incorrectly.

                        In the worst case the machine may not be properly earthed. If the machine shorts (eg an element blows) then you effectively have a 240V live piece of metal sitting on your kitchen bench ready to kill the next person that happens along.

                        This was the case with an CoffeeItalia Elektra we serviced earlier in the year. Up until the moment we explained to the owner that their two year old Elektra failed our electrical safety test, they were no doubt very happy with their purchase. Thankfully in this case we found and fixed the fault before it had a chance to hurt someone.

                        charlie
                        Originally posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
                        Saying that machines designed to work safely in europe will not work safely in Australia is a load of crap.
                        Yes- clearly. All machines are perfectly safe. Just best not to touch the ones which aren't

                        Also of consideration is that when this grey stuff is sold, it's on the seller to come clean that it's not Aust. Spec. I wonder how many here would be paying $1.5k for a 4YO grey import Giotto? Same rules apply as with cars. Cheaper on the way in, much cheaper 2nd hand.

                        Meanwhile, I'm keen to know why the Chris24's Silvia was so bad and the Gaggia was so much better?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          just out of curiosity what is in Australian Spec. that differ with Euro or Italian spec? Anything in particular that we need to worry about as consumers and prospect customers?
                          And also if these grey imports assuming lots of them are being serviced for malfunctioning due to Aussie standard compliance incompatibility and such services generate income to local businesses, then this whinging and bashing to how bad is an outsider shop like Cafeitalia or coffeeitalia is just a hypochrisy then.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ahhhespressso View Post
                            just out of curiosity what is in Australian Spec. that differ with Euro or Italian spec? Anything in particular that we need to worry about as consumers and prospect customers?
                            Suggest you use the search function ^^^ and familiarise yourself with the other relevant threads. We've discussed the differences previously.

                            Meanwhile, I'm keen to know why the Chris24's Silvia was so bad and the Gaggia was so much better?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dimal View Post
                              Maybe true for some Bosco, but was never my experience in any of the industries I worked in over the years mate. Big generalisation I think...

                              Mal.
                              Mal, no generalisation, just fact. I know the electrical cable industry inside out. Unless a particular brand of cable is specified, the contractor tends to choose the cheapest option. This applies to mining, o/g, industrial, commercial and in particular residential.

                              This refers to one brand:
                              Infinity electrical cables prohibited - Department of Justice and Attorney-General

                              Other brands on the market when tested by independent labs have proven to have insufficient thickness of insulation, as per Aust standards. Thick enough to be safe for 240v, but not the thickness specified.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                                Suggest you use the search function ^^^ and familiarise yourself with the other relevant threads. We've discussed the differences previously.

                                Meanwhile, I'm keen to know why the Chris24's Silvia was so bad and the Gaggia was so much better?
                                on the contrary,
                                I have spent a considerable times searching here and on the net about the diff of aust. spec giotto and euro spec giotto and other coffee machine other than the end pug. An italian friend of mine told me they re exactly the same thing. So with so many unclear information and some may be well perceived bias by others, thus the question was asked. I was hoping an official article published by any italian manufacturer. But if there is no such thing, we will still be in confusion and as customer, i would still really look for cheaper price even if it means purchasing "grey" imports. But if you dont really have the answer than no worries. Thanks

                                Comment

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