Originally posted by Juvv
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Machine Recommendations For A Newbie?
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I went through what you are going through before.
Had the nespresso. Wasn't happy.. Than got a super auto. Kept that for only 2-3 weeks.
Talk to a few friends and end up buying a Silvia. Single boiler machine which was great to make a good shot but does take a little longer with the inherit limitation of most single boiler machines. However, if you are straight espresso machine, then it would not matter that much. Great machine
Than I picked up a cheap BES860 and have to admit most ppl here would give the breville as an appliance classification. Meaning while it is great, it won't last you for a log time. I picked it up really cheap ($50) because it was leaking and not working well... After giving a standard clean, no leaks and pulling great shots. I believe most common issues are just down to some owners not really knowing how to look after and maintain their machines.
After that I've picked up a lever machine (Isomac Tea) from a fellow member here and I've managed to find a Rocket Giotto V1. And coming from using the Silvia, the lever machines are SO MUcH easier to use compare to the Silvia (or should I say, more forgiving
and pulling great milk shots are quicker and easier.
However, one thing I have learned from my experience so far is that what ever machines you get... It all comes down to how good your grinder is. If you don't get the right grinder, your $2k machine will still end up pulling crap shots.
So, don't forget to budget for a good grinder
Good luck with your search
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Hi Okitoki,
everything you have basically said, is a path I had already "assumed" I may go down, In regards to going nespresso > superauto (because im super lazy, but then probably wont like it) > Decent machine.
Just looked up those machines you mentioned that are lever, they seem to be semi automatic? maybe ive found the wrong model?
Thanks for the advice on the grinder, it seems to be very important in regards to what machine you use , which is why I have thought the all in one semi autos like the lelit would be good because you would "hope" that the manufacturer has customised the grinder specifically for that machine.
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Hello Juvv,
I recommend that you revisit sponsors/suppliers to help clarify your thoughts. You will find they have broad experience on a variety of machines. Regardless of what other experts may think, thermoblocks definitely fall into the appliance category. Poor coffee can be produced rapidly with a $50 thermoblock and pressurised portafilter. Most of them use pressurised portafilters and will produce pseudocoffee at best- even with their gimmicks. They go to the tip when they go pop.
A real espressso machine will produce real espresso. It will also last a whole heap longer if well cared for. Good coffee will take time.
Lelit fits your brief well. My perfect shot machine is a VBM Domobar Piccolo. They do come up 2nd hand and are within budget. When correctly calibrated, they are deadly shot machines. A PID can be added later if you want to play with temperature.
As for Breville, the only one currently available I'd even consider is the dual boiler- but some have experienced issues with them. A good grinder and sound technique are paramount.
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Thanks mate. Yeah the Lelit seems to be the way to go. I would like to just buy something once and never have to buy again, at least not for being unsatisfied and not liking the quality of coffee.
I dont know enough about PID control, to know wether or not its necessary for someone starting out like me to use it. I guess its better to have than not, as ill get more experienced the more shots I pull (you would hope! )
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Sorry. I mistakenly thinking that when you said a lever machine (for a newbie) is like the semi auto machines like the tea and giotto.Originally posted by Juvv View PostJust looked up those machines you mentioned that are lever, they seem to be semi automatic? maybe ive found the wrong model?
I never used an actual manual lever machine that you pull the handle for pressure shots... And by what I've read is a little harder to learn without guidance... Specially for a new person coming from nespresso
I agree they look really cool but is it practical enough for you to use it daily and produce drinkable shots all the time. There is an ad on gumtree now (at Newport NSW) for a nice La Pavoni manual lever machine, the owner must have bought it on a whim because it looks cool, because he said he has since upgraded to a capsule machine
I'm in the thoughts of trying out cheapish first when trying a new hobby... The breville/sunbeams are popular for people who wants to try out making espresso themselves. If they are happy with it, they keep using it... And if they do really love their coffee, then they would join Coffeesnobs and go buy a nice prosumer range of machine... By the way... All the machines I had were all bought second hand except for the nespresso (which was from collecting points).
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I think we need to stop referring to HX or single boiler machines with a short brew lever as "lever machines" . Now we refer to machines with the long lever handle such as the Strega, Pompeii, Londinium, Pavoni, Lusso, Cremina etc as "lever machines"Originally posted by okitoki View PostSorry. I mistakenly thinking that when you said a lever machine (for a newbie) is like the semi auto machines like the tea and giotto.
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Just to go slightly tangent on the discussion here. But the feature of "Pre infusion" used by the e61 where you engaged the lever to 3/4 way up. Is it supposed to be used like that as preinfusion or its just a matter of turning it fully on only to pull a shot?
Or is it just someone doing it in youtube and everyone else thought that its cool and started following it?
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I know I won't get much love from people here talking super-autos, however I've had a Jura Ena 5 for four years and bought a Jura Ena Micro 9 last year which is better. I buy my beans from good reputable roasters and the 9 does warm, tasty shots with a good crema every time. I'm sure a semi auto once practiced would be better but the super-auto is ready to go in 30 secs, so fits in with my morning routine.
if you can get to a Harvey Norman they usually demo these machines on the weekends.
All that said I'm in the process of buying a semi-auto to use on the weekends, but I know the Jura will still be getting a good workout.
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The answer is, it depends!Originally posted by okitoki View PostJust to go slightly tangent on the discussion here. But the feature of "Pre infusion" used by the e61 where you engaged the lever to 3/4 way up. Is it supposed to be used like that as preinfusion or its just a matter of turning it fully on only to pull a shot?
Or is it just someone doing it in youtube and everyone else thought that its cool and started following it?
Case A: Your E61 lever operated machine is plumbed in. Operating the lever to the halfway position opens the brew valve but does not turn on the pump. This allows the water supply pressure to push water through the HX into the brew head where it starts to preinfuse the coffee grounds. The pressure will eventually build up to the point where it opens the spring-loaded pre-infusion valve and allows water to fill the lower chamber - once this is copmplete the coffee will sit there with full supply pressure on it until you operate the lever the rest of the way and start the pump. Pre-infusion time is determined by how long you wait to move the lever from half to full movement.
Case B: You are operating from a internal tank. Operating the lever halfway opens the brew valve but otherwise achieves nothing as the water supply pressure in this case is zero, or very close to. When you operate the lever fully and start the pump it will force water into the brew head, which will cause the pre-infusion valve to open. The pressure on the coffee will remain a bit lower than normal brewing pressure until the lower chamber is filled, at which point full pressure will then be developed in the brew head and coffee will be made. In my experience the pre-infusion time in this case is a gnat's less than 5 seconds (from pump start to coffee appearance).
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Originally posted by okitoki View PostSorry. I mistakenly thinking that when you said a lever machine (for a newbie) is like the semi auto machines like the tea and giotto.
I never used an actual manual lever machine that you pull the handle for pressure shots... And by what I've read is a little harder to learn without guidance... Specially for a new person coming from nespresso
I agree they look really cool but is it practical enough for you to use it daily and produce drinkable shots all the time. There is an ad on gumtree now (at Newport NSW) for a nice La Pavoni manual lever machine, the owner must have bought it on a whim because it looks cool, because he said he has since upgraded to a capsule machine
I'm in the thoughts of trying out cheapish first when trying a new hobby... The breville/sunbeams are popular for people who wants to try out making espresso themselves. If they are happy with it, they keep using it... And if they do really love their coffee, then they would join Coffeesnobs and go buy a nice prosumer range of machine... By the way... All the machines I had were all bought second hand except for the nespresso (which was from collecting points).
Ive already contacted those people from newport
Thats really close to me, no reply yet! It looks like its a Pro too, as it has the temp gauge unless they upgraded it manually (if you can even do that with the cheaper model)
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In my case, it is B... However, I have checked my machine what it does at 3/4 open... there would be water coming out after 3-4 seconds continuously till I engange the switch fully... would this not "wet" the ground sufficiently on the surface? Or does pre-infusion means the whole puck needs to be wet before applying full pressure?Originally posted by MikeS View PostCase B: You are operating from a internal tank. Operating the lever halfway opens the brew valve but otherwise achieves nothing as the water supply pressure in this case is zero, or very close to. When you operate the lever fully and start the pump it will force water into the brew head, which will cause the pre-infusion valve to open. The pressure on the coffee will remain a bit lower than normal brewing pressure until the lower chamber is filled, at which point full pressure will then be developed in the brew head and coffee will be made. In my experience the pre-infusion time in this case is a gnat's less than 5 seconds (from pump start to coffee appearance).
I do hear the distinct change of sound in the pump when, i guess, is at full pressure... '
either way, I do notice I get less channelling recently when I started trying the 3/4 open first before each shot... puck comes out nice and solid where as I had obvious channelling in the middle or the side... but that could also be the changes i made to how I tamp... gentle pressure when twisting to polish the grind...
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