I use the 22 (dose 26g) to make two "doubles", and the 15g (dose 18-19g) to make one large extra strength coffee for one.
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Naked portafilter EM 6910
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EM7000 has a higher shower head than E61/commercial/high end domestic machines. ~2mm maybe for 4g difference in dose. EM6910, only going from the Greg Davies instructional DVD, may be even higher (or might be about the same).Originally posted by mwcalder05 View PostDose 26?? How does that even fit?!
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He just means the weight of the beans that you put in won't match the weight of the output. This is due to various chambers holding or retaining some grinds. Or you could pick up some retained grinds from the last try so you might end up with more mass!Originally posted by rawill View PostWhat do you mean by this, too many fines or ??
I just bought one!
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*grins* Don't freak out rawill, it's a good grinder. It's just as Michael says, the grind retention means you can't be sure of just how much you get out the spout. If I had a better set of scales I could measure the output properly by grind/dose/tamp, put the filter and grind on the scales and then into the PF; as it is, by the time I measure my dose and then transfer it into the filter I'd have 5 minute old grounds - not good for coffee quality.
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Hi MichaelOriginally posted by mwcalder05 View PostHey Robin,
So the single..for me personally I would purchase the next basket size up from the 7 which is 15 because I prefer a bigger, fuller flavor, especially with a low end grinder. Not too sure if the VST 7g baskets fix the dreaded single shot basket inconsistency.
If you do purchase the 22 or 15, make sure you purchase ridgless! I don't think there's a choice with the 7g
Michael
Your "bigger, fuller flavour" is logical but may be incorrect for 480 / 6910 when using VST's in a naked p/f (I have two of each of them, amongst other makers / grinders). I also have two complete sets of VST ridgeless / 7g ridged.
How filter baskets affect espresso taste and barista technique - Reviews • Home-Barista.com is a 2011 link I missed at the time from Jim Schulman.
My experience from the last few years agrees with him. A sorted 7g VST single / naked p/f gives a far "bigger, fuller flavour" than I have ever had from a double or triple. Considering I would have made (perhaps) 5 singles from 1970 to VST purchase date, it surprised me too. I found that (after dialing it in) the 22g VST was far too strong (way, way stronger than any triple I have ever encountered). It was also difficult to balance as it lost too many high notes. Working my way slowly downwards through the 20g, 18g & 15g I found the same thing. When I reached the 7g I was amazed at the clarity, detail and sheer punch. It often beats the bigger baskets for the rich chocolatey "low note" tones (as per JS thread) however it always nails them on the high notes even when the larger baskets are correctly balanced. IMHO most CS'rs are probably using the larger baskets as ristretto's (whether knowingly or not) which actually trades the high notes for even more lows. HB has dozens of threads over the last 10 years about larger baskets and reaches the same conclusion on the vast majority of them.
The other two stray thoughts: 7g is the traditional single espresso shot for the last hundred years. Surely they cannot all be wrong over such a time period... The new Nespresso pod machines (no, I do not own one) use a 4 to 5g shot. If you put a decent coffee in them (think CS sponsor Di Bella currently & deservedly cashing in by providing quality pods) they are not down on strength in any way.
Why do singles do this? I have several guesses but it seems to me (penciled in very, very lightly) most likely due to the increased distance for the coffee to travel in the basket. Every grain the water goes past must have an effect.
Anyway, something for you to play with.
TampIt
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Hi RobinOriginally posted by rawill View PostHi Mike and Tampit
If i get two VST baskets, to replace the standard 6910 baskets I guess I would get a 7 and a 22.
If I am wrong please correct me.
I only make a coffee for myself in the morning, hence using the single basket, maybe it is a 7 in VST baskets, or is it more like 11, half of a 22.
And of course, if buying one basket for me, I might as well buy another for the times I make coffees for guests.
Robin
The standard 6910 "double" is 16g. The 6910 single is roughly a large 7 / small 8g (haven't measured it, it is a gnat's whisker bigger than the 7g VST by eye). See prev post for some more info. Using a naked (i.e. not splitting it), a 22g is far too big for most people / roasts when it is dialed in.
Splitting a 22g will often give a worse outcome than splitting a 15 or 18 unless the roast is old and you are determined to avoid the bitterness by running it short. Splitting any coffee will give a worse result than running separate equivalent shots (worked that out years ago "on the front line"). Depends on the guests I suppose (segue: one CS'r bought Vittoria from the local supermarket to prevent them from getting spoilt).
I would suggest you get a 7g and a 15g first and play with them before you go up in size unless you like dark roasts and also happen to smoke. http://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-eq...w-machine.html starts with an EM480 and goes on for several pages morphing into 6910 stuff somewhere in the middle. It has more than enough info to sort the rest of VST / naked p/f's out (and he or I would usually be available for detailed specifics via a PM). Sorry to dob you in JM
.
Cheers
TampIt
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Many thanks to you all.
I never imagined my "little question" would morph into such an interesting and informative read.
And with great links for furter reading.
My "hobbies" go in cycles, so sometimes I am not here for a while, but it seems most times I come back there is something more to learn.
Again many thanks.
And with some improvement in tamping things have improved, but I still get stray "water spouts"!
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How? Evidence? I went from splitting my original 6910 double basket to splitting my 22g VST (WITH AN 0480) and needless to say, it was definitely a step up. I don't know where you are getting all these wild ideas from TampIt..Originally posted by TampIt View PostSplitting a 22g will often give a worse outcome than splitting a 15 or 18
To the OP, I would say go for the 22g and work your way down. I drink a double ristretto shot (probably less than a dbl as I cut it before blonding) with my 22g and 0480 and 6910 and the result will be exactly the same with a naked pf. I would like to add, it can be confusing listening to all us snobs with different opinions but listen to your tongue. Buy what you like and stick with what you think tastes well
Michael
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Hi MichaelOriginally posted by mwcalder05 View PostHow? Evidence? I went from splitting my original 6910 double basket to splitting my 22g VST (WITH AN 0480) and needless to say, it was definitely a step up. I don't know where you are getting all these wild ideas from TampIt..
I gave you one link. There are quite a few others that are starting to pose the same Qn. Oh, and JS has probably forgotten more about coffee than I will ever know.
The other issue: VST themselves are worth a read: they have a lot of recommendations about the use of their baskets esp. in terms of dosing. So does Ben Kaminsky on Espresso: Why you hate it and how to fix it [video] - Tips and Techniques • Home-Barista.com from the latest Nordic conference. Wild ideas? Who knows? BK doubles the extraction and keeps the same TDS - that is pretty wild too, however he back it with figures.
The elephant in this room is possibly the grinder. Most grinders (even good commercial ones like Robur SJ's) give far too many "additional fines" when you set them finer than standard espresso and it futzes the whole coffee equation up. I stand by my statements. EM480's are what I call cheap conicals, they tend to perform better than "cheap flat burrs" at those very fine settings (which is why I bought a second one in a twofer deal). You can bump the VST extraction rate up a lot by grinding it finer and then adjusting your dosing & tamping to match. When you get a 7g (shelved?, not really ridged) or 15g 18g / 20g /22g ridgeless "in the zone" it becomes an interesting comparison. Also personal tastes vary as much as roasts, so you may prefer more low notes. Nothing wrong with that, however it is not the only way.
Not with a good fresh medium SO it won't, not even close... Dark roasts tend to reduce the difference somewhat. We may have to agree to differ on that. Robin is already using singles, so AFAIAC a 7g or maybe a 15g is his best starting point. Considering VST's are well under $50 each and any machine is a lot more $$$'s, it is not like buying a new car...Originally posted by mwcalder05 View PostTo the OP, I would say go for the 22g and work your way down. I drink a double ristretto shot (probably less than a dbl as I cut it before blonding) with my 22g and 0480 and 6910 and the result will be exactly the same with a naked pf.
Totally agree. That is why it is always worth experimenting. I posted somewhere on CS that if someone said three years ago that I would be changing from my 22g (then) to 7g singles (now) for most of my coffees, I would have thought they were crazy. Yet here we are. The BK talk was only 9th of last month, so I will be trying to get higher extractions out of my 15g+'s over the XMAS break and see if I happen to have fluked the 7g first. All good fun.Originally posted by mwcalder05 View PostI would like to add, it can be confusing listening to all us snobs with different opinions but listen to your tongue. Buy what you like and stick with what you think tastes well
Michael
Enjoy your cuppa
TampIt
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And I enjoy my cuppa.
I like it mild, with silky milk, and now I find I do not like the coffee I get from cafe's.
Today I pick up "used' my EM380.
Was only NZ$100.00, so if it is not good, nothing much lost.
Will be fun, then I will get a VST basket or two!
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Good luck with it rawill - don't despair if you find it doesn't grind fine enough - a shim under the bottom burr fixes it. Depends how old it is - apparently the newer ones aren't as prone to the problem or maybe they started shimming them before leaving SB? Mi9ne went fromabout a 2 to get a reasonable pour to 13 and my EM0450 from 1 on the decaf (only when new, as soo as beans aged it was gusher time) to a 23 (thicker shim.
Other than that they seem to be pretty good grinders and the price is unbeatable for the quality.
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