Silvia Espresso Difficulty

[kyler]

Just poured 5 shots with 18g and all of them took under 13 seconds. Quite frustrating. Perhaps the pressure is set too high?

[mentasm]

My rocky will easily grind fine enough to choke if I tamp hard even with my grind setting about 5 clicks up from it's zero. If you are getting a gush pour with what you think is your finest grind you definitely have an issue with your rocky.

[kyler]

Not sure how much luck you'll have with finding a tech, I think if you were to take it to someone they'll suggest/sell new burrs before proceeding with any other troubleshooting. From what I hear/read it's not easy to tell good from bad burrs by sight/touch alone, only really by performance.

Maybe just buy new burrs, if they don't help then at least you've got new burrs for later and they'll hold up the resale value of your grinder eventually as you can throw in brand new burrs

I assume at this stage you're sure the issue is the grinder anyway.

Good luck

If after testing with some good grinds tomorrow and confirm it's the grinder I might do that. Can imagine a tech will cost me a small fortunate and the burrs will only cost $75 or so with shipping.

Also, where abouts are you located? If you're in Perth, I'd be happy to let you try with my grinder (Anfim KS) and at least isolate it as being a rocky problem or a technique problem.

Appreciate the offer but I will just pop by my local cafe tomorrow, it's just around the corner cheers!

Hello kyler.

I've read a few times in the thread that "....the burrs are as close as they can be together before they touch....".

The plates (burrs) cant touch if the stop is fitted in the bottom of the hopper as per factory.

Are you able to adjust the plates down to the point where they actually touch and lock up together?

Or are you just saying you are turning the hopper until it wont go any further?

Have you removed the hopper and checked the stop is in place or not (check back to post #9)?

**************

In post #19 hamm wrote "...Not sure how much luck you'll have with finding a tech, I think if you were to take it to someone they'll suggest/sell new burrs before proceeding with any other troubleshooting...."

Not sure what kind of service technicians you are used to, but professional service businesses wouldnt do that. If you take in a grinder that you say is not grinding fine enough, then....the serviceman will firstly check to see whether the grinder is or isnt grinding fine enough. If the reason for not grinding fine enough is found to be that the plates need replacement, then so be it, but you (they, whoever) dont just replace plates willy nilly without finding the fault first...unless they arent really a professional service tech.

As an aside. In my experience when plates are genuinely worn and need replacing they usually grind too fine as in, the quantity of fines in the total run of particle sizes is vastly increased over normal. And there is increased friction and heat, and the cuppas are nasteeee. And yes, in that case the adjustment brings the plates closer and closer together. This is genuinely rare in household use because home use situations dont grind the volume of beans that are ground in commercial situations, and a set of plates will usually last for years unless some other problem occurs.

Hope that helps.

I meant that when I take the hopper off and adjust the burrs they are as close to each other as they can go. When the hopper is off I can continue screwing the plates another few degrees and they would start moving together. As far as I can tell it's set the same way as factory, the stopper is touching the plastic and can't go any further. If I were to remove the stopper and move the hopper to a finer setting they would lock up almost immediately as far as I can tell.

Will test with the grinds tomorrow and update the thread.

[TOK]

Hello kyler.

I've read a few times in the thread that "....the burrs are as close as they can be together before they touch....".

The plates (burrs) cant touch if the stop is fitted in the bottom of the hopper as per factory.

Are you able to adjust the plates down to the point where they actually touch and lock up together?

Or are you just saying you are turning the hopper until it wont go any further?

Have you removed the hopper and checked the stop is in place or not (check back to post #9)?

**************

In post #19 hamm wrote "...Not sure how much luck you'll have with finding a tech, I think if you were to take it to someone they'll suggest/sell new burrs before proceeding with any other troubleshooting...."

Not sure what kind of service technicians you are used to, but professional service businesses wouldnt do that. If you take in a grinder that you say is not grinding fine enough, then....the serviceman will firstly check to see whether the grinder is or isnt grinding fine enough. If the reason for not grinding fine enough is found to be that the plates need replacement, then so be it, but you (they, whoever) dont just replace plates willy nilly without finding the fault first...unless they arent really a professional service tech.

As an aside. In my experience when plates are genuinely worn and need replacing they usually grind too fine as in, the quantity of fines in the total run of particle sizes is vastly increased over normal. And there is increased friction and heat, and the cuppas are nasteeee. And yes, in that case the adjustment brings the plates closer and closer together. This is genuinely rare in household use because home use situations dont grind the volume of beans that are ground in commercial situations, and a set of plates will usually last for years unless some other problem occurs.

Hope that helps.

[hamm]

Also, where abouts are you located? If you're in Perth, I'd be happy to let you try with my grinder (Anfim KS) and at least isolate it as being a rocky problem or a technique problem.

[hamm]

Not sure how much luck you'll have with finding a tech, I think if you were to take it to someone they'll suggest/sell new burrs before proceeding with any other troubleshooting. From what I hear/read it's not easy to tell good from bad burrs by sight/touch alone, only really by performance.

Maybe just buy new burrs, if they don't help then at least you've got new burrs for later and they'll hold up the resale value of your grinder eventually as you can throw in brand new burrs

I assume at this stage you're sure the issue is the grinder anyway.

Good luck

[kyler]

I suggest you have a tech look at your Rocky. It may require adjustment of the zero point or alternately, the burrs may be shagged.

You're probably right. Any recommended places NoR?

Surprised no one has mentioned channeling. If the shot starts off ok and then gushes this is usually the problem, in which case you may be grinding fine enough, but the issue is distribution/clumping, which can be a problem with Rocky.

I suspect the place you did the course didn't do you a favour by letting you train on top-end equipment either. Rocky and Silvia are fine, but would need adjustments in your technique.

Surely that wouldn't be the case for every shot I would have though? I've also experimented with the WDT and get more or less the same results (although the extraction is more even).

I had a few gushers this morning and in the end couldn't be bothered. Definitely put it down to channeling and the older beans didnt help.

@Chris, could the OPV be set way too high, and hence allowing a ridiculous amount of pressure to push more water through, or even make channeling worse??

I've actually lowered the pressure on my machine (although I don't own a gauge so bit of a guessing game), I've been wanting to order a gauge online but haven't bitten the bullet because I'm saving for a holiday at the moment.

[nicovington]

Surprised no one has mentioned channeling. If the shot starts off ok and then gushes this is usually the problem, in which case you may be grinding fine enough, but the issue is distribution/clumping, which can be a problem with Rocky.

I suspect the place you did the course didn't do you a favour by letting you train on top-end equipment either. Rocky and Silvia are fine, but would need adjustments in your technique.

I had a few gushers this morning and in the end couldn't be bothered. Definitely put it down to channeling and the older beans didnt help.

@Chris, could the OPV be set way too high, and hence allowing a ridiculous amount of pressure to push more water through, or even make channeling worse??

[habahabanero]

Surprised no one has mentioned channeling. If the shot starts off ok and then gushes this is usually the problem, in which case you may be grinding fine enough, but the issue is distribution/clumping, which can be a problem with Rocky.

I suspect the place you did the course didn't do you a favour by letting you train on top-end equipment either. Rocky and Silvia are fine, but would need adjustments in your technique.

[TC]

I suggest you have a tech look at your Rocky. It may require adjustment of the zero point or alternately, the burrs may be shagged.

[kyler]

From what you advised us in your original question, the coffee has always run "fast" since you bought the set up.

In which case if you are entirely satisfied with the coffee bean supply, you have to go investigating the grinder.

You mention one day you switched on the grinder and the burrs must have touched. Afraid that really cant happen as long as the locking pin is secured. If you make an adjustment and do not make sure the locking pin is secured, next time you switch on the torque of the motor can spin the adjuster BUT....that is unusual. So.....unlikely any plates touched unless you set them to locked position and then switched on. Which would be impossible....because there is a "stopper" in the bottom of the hopper, that stops the adjustment going to lock up stage....unless of course someone has removed it.

The "stopper" is nothing more than a screw that is screwed into the bottom of the hopper.

Remove the hopper, remove the stopper (its just a screw fitted in the factory...very obvious underneath the hopper), refit the hopper, and dial the grinder back in...but remember in that case your grinder really can go to lock up stage....which should never be a problem, because if you adjust too fine, your machine will choke, and then you back the grind adjustment off to a more coarse setting, and as long as you make sure the locking pin is secure, the adjuster is not going to magically shift itself to the place where the plates (burrs) touch.

Hope that helps.

It has always been fast but I'm not certain that I just didn't have good technique before. I re calibrated the grinder yesterday and the burrs are as close as they can be together before they touch. Maybe I just had something go through the grinder in that case, it made a very loud grinding noise when it happened.

What is the number on the basket you are using?

I got mine from coffee a roma andjust use the biggest one, but it came with a standard double basket which was way better quality and in the end made much better coffee.

I've found on my Silvia that you get gushing shots when (and sorta in order of how I'd go about tracking it down):
1. Not ground fine enough
2. Not enough coffee
3. OLD BEANS
4. Tamp not hard enough (least likely, I like to do quite a light tamp sometimes and still get great coffee)

Embarrassingly I've just checked the basket and I noticed I'm using an aftermarket basket (I bought the setup second hand). I don't actually know what size is appropriate for it. I have the 40-100-010 (old style) basket from Rancilio as well.

In regards to your points unfortunately I can't grind any finer, I've filled the basket to the top and more many times and it still gushes, beans are fresh and I normally tamp really hard!

I have the same set up to you and find no difficulty in pulling a decent shot. The rocky should be able to grind fine enough for a 25-30 sec espresso. My rocky is at a setting of 5 so im not sure why its not working for you.

I am more inclined to look at how you tamp your coffee. How much pressure are you putting in? What technique do you do?

Otherwise increase the dosage more and see how that changes your flow. I have had issues with particular beans. I roast my own and I've come across some beans which i had to spend a lot more time than usual dialling in the shot, and had to set my rocky at its finest (which i rarely do- as i said before 5 approx is my optimal setting)

I tamp quite hard, I have the portafilter resting on a tampmat at the edge of the counter and angle it so that I can see the edge of the basket and the tamp. I'll apply soft pressure while making sure it's flat and then press down quite hard. I have my elbow at a right angle and try to push directly down.

Hi kyler

TOK clearly knows way more about a Rocky than I do. Unsurprisingly, a Rocky cannot touch the burrs.

It sounds like you received a small piece of metal at no extra cost w the roast at the time. Years ago it was such a common issue that my '85 RR45 actually has a magnet at the bottom of the hopper as a defence mechanism. Even a small piece can totally wreck the burrs. Hopefully that is not the problem, however it now seems highly likely.

One more to add to your checklist.


TampIt

Hmm, it does seem likely. Wish I had such a defence now!

I tested out a few shots to see what changes occurred. All of these were ground at 1 on the Rocky, beans were roasted on the 4th.

20g dose - 14 sec pour - 33g extraction

18g dose - 12 sec pour - 36g extraction

16.1g dose - 10 sec pour - 35.6g extraction

Results are pretty consistent. All shots were extremely bitter and acidic. All had a decent layer of crema as you can see here.

I will get some freshly ground beans tomorrow to test further (and probably confirm that there is an issue with Mr Rocky!).\

Thanks for everyone's replies.

[flashpixx]

I've found on my Silvia that you get gushing shots when (and sorta in order of how I'd go about tracking it down):
1. Not ground fine enough
2. Not enough coffee
3. OLD BEANS
4. Tamp not hard enough (least likely, I like to do quite a light tamp sometimes and still get great coffee)

After going through a few kg of beans I have come to the same conclusion. Had my Sylvia and EM0480 for 2 weeks. Got the best flat white ever from it this morning using FRESH beans (Roasted just last week here in Perth). I've settled on a setting for the 480 that is the best compromise. Getting the right amount of grinds in the filter basket seems to be the key.

My Routine:

1. Make sure the grinder hopper is 50% or more full (an empty grinder hopper seems to cause a gush with the 480)
2. Fill the filter basket to about 50% or so, and tamp but not too firmly. Using the double basket from Rancilio is a pain as it needs to be at least 50% full before the tamper will go in (bevelled basket at the bottom)
3. Fill the filter basket so that prior to tamping the grinds are level with the top of the basket. If over full I use my finger to gently sweep away the excess.
4. Tamp with a nutating method (basically slowly spin the tamper while rocking it back and fwd very slightly)
5. I tamp quite firmly but on a mat not directly on the benchtop.

Note an overfull basket results in the handle not easily going into the machine, and coffee over the screen!! and a jammed up pour

Oh and get a decent commercial double filter basket. Coffee parts have one in the post for me

I'm still not able to get it right every time, but one needs to concentrate. I get a 25 sec pour for 30 mls + crema when I do it right.

I am going to upgrade from the 480 to a K3P but only because I can get the K3P at a good price (private sale).

[TampIt]

Hi TampIt,

thanks for the reply! Will definitely try that out on Monday (my local is shut tomorrow).

I actually just remembered that a couple months ago I turned the grinder on and the burrs must of touched. When I opened it up a couple shavings of metal were in there but they were quite small. I'm imagining even a small difference in the blades could have a drastic effect.

After I get some grinds on Monday that will hopefully give me more of an idea if that is the problem.

Hi kyler

TOK clearly knows way more about a Rocky than I do. Unsurprisingly, a Rocky cannot touch the burrs.

It sounds like you received a small piece of metal at no extra cost w the roast at the time. Years ago it was such a common issue that my '85 RR45 actually has a magnet at the bottom of the hopper as a defence mechanism. Even a small piece can totally wreck the burrs. Hopefully that is not the problem, however it now seems highly likely.

One more to add to your checklist.


TampIt

[alphaoscar]

I have the same set up to you and find no difficulty in pulling a decent shot. The rocky should be able to grind fine enough for a 25-30 sec espresso. My rocky is at a setting of 5 so im not sure why its not working for you.

I am more inclined to look at how you tamp your coffee. How much pressure are you putting in? What technique do you do?

Otherwise increase the dosage more and see how that changes your flow. I have had issues with particular beans. I roast my own and I've come across some beans which i had to spend a lot more time than usual dialling in the shot, and had to set my rocky at its finest (which i rarely do- as i said before 5 approx is my optimal setting)

[nicovington]

What is the number on the basket you are using?

I got mine from coffee a roma andjust use the biggest one, but it came with a standard double basket which was way better quality and in the end made much better coffee.

I've found on my Silvia that you get gushing shots when (and sorta in order of how I'd go about tracking it down):
1. Not ground fine enough
2. Not enough coffee
3. OLD BEANS
4. Tamp not hard enough (least likely, I like to do quite a light tamp sometimes and still get great coffee)