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  • Silvia Espresso Difficulty

    Hi there,

    I guess I should pre-face this by saying that I did Barista Academy's basic training course which was great but has left me confused due to the differences in equipment.

    I've owned my Silvia for about 6 months now and I'm still not happy with the resulting shots. I've almost always used freshly roasted beans (aiming to use them 7 days after they were roasted) and grind them using my Rocky. The shots always come out way too fast, almost always gushing. The shots are normally quite thick and syrupy to begin with but wane off after 5 or so seconds. The flavour is quite acrid and tastes over-extracted.

    I'm using the generic double shot basket provided with the machine and measure 18 grams each time. I've experimented with different amounts from 14-20g with little differences.

    I nearly always grind the beans to the finest setting because the shots are coming out so fast but it seems like it's still not fine enough. The grinder burrs are as together as possible.

    During the course I used a Synesso Sabre which would allow us to pour a 30ml shot in 30 seconds, not sure if this is relevant since it's such a different caliber of machine.

    If anyone could offer any advice it would be greatly appreciated as I'm having a hard time convincing the others in the house it's a good purchase at this point!

    Kyle

  • #2
    It'syourgrinder.jpg

    Can the Rocky be calibrated to grind finer?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by kyler View Post
      The grinder burrs are as together as possible.
      Originally posted by Dragunov21 View Post
      Can the Rocky be calibrated to grind finer?
      Unfortunately not.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by kyler View Post
        Hi there,

        I guess I should pre-face this by saying that I did Barista Academy's basic training course which was great but has left me confused due to the differences in equipment.

        I've owned my Silvia for about 6 months now and I'm still not happy with the resulting shots. I've almost always used freshly roasted beans (aiming to use them 7 days after they were roasted) and grind them using my Rocky. The shots always come out way too fast, almost always gushing. The shots are normally quite thick and syrupy to begin with but wane off after 5 or so seconds. The flavour is quite acrid and tastes over-extracted.

        I'm using the generic double shot basket provided with the machine and measure 18 grams each time. I've experimented with different amounts from 14-20g with little differences.

        I nearly always grind the beans to the finest setting because the shots are coming out so fast but it seems like it's still not fine enough. The grinder burrs are as together as possible.

        During the course I used a Synesso Sabre which would allow us to pour a 30ml shot in 30 seconds, not sure if this is relevant since it's such a different caliber of machine.

        If anyone could offer any advice it would be greatly appreciated as I'm having a hard time convincing the others in the house it's a good purchase at this point!

        Kyle
        Hi Kyle

        Sounds like either Rocky or Sylvia needs a doctor.

        The fastest way I can think of: go to wherever you get a decent coffee and ask them to supply you with circa 100g of ground beans (for a fee). See what the Sylvia makes of them (you need enough to play with dosing and even perhaps tamping to dial it in).

        The cheapies way: Same cafe: ask them for some of their old grinds. Tell them you want to see whether your grinder is OK or not, and just want to use the texture as a guide. Use the old "white paper test" and compare the cafe & your Rocky particle size (mainly) and spread (because the grinds are there, like Everest).

        TampIt

        Comment


        • #5
          You can slow down a pour with a finer grind or more grounds.

          If you grind at the finest setting a 20gm shot should be noticeably different to a 14gm shot.

          You said there was little difference.
          Please try again one immediately after the other and confirm.

          How sure are you of the bean freshness?
          Last edited by Thundergod; 12 January 2014, 02:03 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TampIt View Post
            Hi Kyle

            Sounds like either Rocky or Sylvia needs a doctor.

            The fastest way I can think of: go to wherever you get a decent coffee and ask them to supply you with circa 100g of ground beans (for a fee). See what the Sylvia makes of them (you need enough to play with dosing and even perhaps tamping to dial it in).

            The cheapies way: Same cafe: ask them for some of their old grinds. Tell them you want to see whether your grinder is OK or not, and just want to use the texture as a guide. Use the old "white paper test" and compare the cafe & your Rocky particle size (mainly) and spread (because the grinds are there, like Everest).

            TampIt
            Hi TampIt,

            thanks for the reply! Will definitely try that out on Monday (my local is shut tomorrow).

            Originally posted by Thundergod View Post
            You can slow down a poor with a finer grind or more grounds.

            If you grind at the finest setting a 20gm shot should be noticeably different to a 14gm shot.

            You said there was little difference.
            Please try again one immediately after the other and confirm.

            How sure are you of the bean freshness?
            Sorry I meant there was little difference in the overall quality of the shots. I will do both now again and reply shortly.

            The beans of from a local roastery so I'm sure about the freshness! Thanks a lot for the reply.

            I actually just remembered that a couple months ago I turned the grinder on and the burrs must of touched. When I opened it up a couple shavings of metal were in there but they were quite small. I'm imagining even a small difference in the blades could have a drastic effect.

            After I get some grinds on Monday that will hopefully give me more of an idea if that is the problem.

            Comment


            • #7
              following with interest

              Comment


              • #8
                It's become a bit late to be testing shots so will do so in the morning!

                Comment


                • #9
                  From what you advised us in your original question, the coffee has always run "fast" since you bought the set up.

                  In which case if you are entirely satisfied with the coffee bean supply, you have to go investigating the grinder.

                  You mention one day you switched on the grinder and the burrs must have touched. Afraid that really cant happen as long as the locking pin is secured. If you make an adjustment and do not make sure the locking pin is secured, next time you switch on the torque of the motor can spin the adjuster BUT....that is unusual. So.....unlikely any plates touched unless you set them to locked position and then switched on. Which would be impossible....because there is a "stopper" in the bottom of the hopper, that stops the adjustment going to lock up stage....unless of course someone has removed it.

                  The "stopper" is nothing more than a screw that is screwed into the bottom of the hopper.

                  Remove the hopper, remove the stopper (its just a screw fitted in the factory...very obvious underneath the hopper), refit the hopper, and dial the grinder back in...but remember in that case your grinder really can go to lock up stage....which should never be a problem, because if you adjust too fine, your machine will choke, and then you back the grind adjustment off to a more coarse setting, and as long as you make sure the locking pin is secure, the adjuster is not going to magically shift itself to the place where the plates (burrs) touch.

                  Hope that helps.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What is the number on the basket you are using?

                    I got mine from coffee a roma andjust use the biggest one, but it came with a standard double basket which was way better quality and in the end made much better coffee.

                    I've found on my Silvia that you get gushing shots when (and sorta in order of how I'd go about tracking it down):
                    1. Not ground fine enough
                    2. Not enough coffee
                    3. OLD BEANS
                    4. Tamp not hard enough (least likely, I like to do quite a light tamp sometimes and still get great coffee)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have the same set up to you and find no difficulty in pulling a decent shot. The rocky should be able to grind fine enough for a 25-30 sec espresso. My rocky is at a setting of 5 so im not sure why its not working for you.

                      I am more inclined to look at how you tamp your coffee. How much pressure are you putting in? What technique do you do?

                      Otherwise increase the dosage more and see how that changes your flow. I have had issues with particular beans. I roast my own and I've come across some beans which i had to spend a lot more time than usual dialling in the shot, and had to set my rocky at its finest (which i rarely do- as i said before 5 approx is my optimal setting)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kyler View Post
                        Hi TampIt,

                        thanks for the reply! Will definitely try that out on Monday (my local is shut tomorrow).

                        I actually just remembered that a couple months ago I turned the grinder on and the burrs must of touched. When I opened it up a couple shavings of metal were in there but they were quite small. I'm imagining even a small difference in the blades could have a drastic effect.

                        After I get some grinds on Monday that will hopefully give me more of an idea if that is the problem.
                        Hi kyler

                        TOK clearly knows way more about a Rocky than I do. Unsurprisingly, a Rocky cannot touch the burrs.

                        It sounds like you received a small piece of metal at no extra cost w the roast at the time. Years ago it was such a common issue that my '85 RR45 actually has a magnet at the bottom of the hopper as a defence mechanism. Even a small piece can totally wreck the burrs. Hopefully that is not the problem, however it now seems highly likely.

                        One more to add to your checklist.


                        TampIt

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nicovington View Post
                          I've found on my Silvia that you get gushing shots when (and sorta in order of how I'd go about tracking it down):
                          1. Not ground fine enough
                          2. Not enough coffee
                          3. OLD BEANS
                          4. Tamp not hard enough (least likely, I like to do quite a light tamp sometimes and still get great coffee)
                          After going through a few kg of beans I have come to the same conclusion. Had my Sylvia and EM0480 for 2 weeks. Got the best flat white ever from it this morning using FRESH beans (Roasted just last week here in Perth). I've settled on a setting for the 480 that is the best compromise. Getting the right amount of grinds in the filter basket seems to be the key.

                          My Routine:

                          1. Make sure the grinder hopper is 50% or more full (an empty grinder hopper seems to cause a gush with the 480)
                          2. Fill the filter basket to about 50% or so, and tamp but not too firmly. Using the double basket from Rancilio is a pain as it needs to be at least 50% full before the tamper will go in (bevelled basket at the bottom)
                          3. Fill the filter basket so that prior to tamping the grinds are level with the top of the basket. If over full I use my finger to gently sweep away the excess.
                          4. Tamp with a nutating method (basically slowly spin the tamper while rocking it back and fwd very slightly)
                          5. I tamp quite firmly but on a mat not directly on the benchtop.

                          Note an overfull basket results in the handle not easily going into the machine, and coffee over the screen!! and a jammed up pour

                          Oh and get a decent commercial double filter basket. Coffee parts have one in the post for me

                          I'm still not able to get it right every time, but one needs to concentrate. I get a 25 sec pour for 30 mls + crema when I do it right.

                          I am going to upgrade from the 480 to a K3P but only because I can get the K3P at a good price (private sale).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TOK View Post
                            From what you advised us in your original question, the coffee has always run "fast" since you bought the set up.

                            In which case if you are entirely satisfied with the coffee bean supply, you have to go investigating the grinder.

                            You mention one day you switched on the grinder and the burrs must have touched. Afraid that really cant happen as long as the locking pin is secured. If you make an adjustment and do not make sure the locking pin is secured, next time you switch on the torque of the motor can spin the adjuster BUT....that is unusual. So.....unlikely any plates touched unless you set them to locked position and then switched on. Which would be impossible....because there is a "stopper" in the bottom of the hopper, that stops the adjustment going to lock up stage....unless of course someone has removed it.

                            The "stopper" is nothing more than a screw that is screwed into the bottom of the hopper.

                            Remove the hopper, remove the stopper (its just a screw fitted in the factory...very obvious underneath the hopper), refit the hopper, and dial the grinder back in...but remember in that case your grinder really can go to lock up stage....which should never be a problem, because if you adjust too fine, your machine will choke, and then you back the grind adjustment off to a more coarse setting, and as long as you make sure the locking pin is secure, the adjuster is not going to magically shift itself to the place where the plates (burrs) touch.

                            Hope that helps.
                            It has always been fast but I'm not certain that I just didn't have good technique before. I re calibrated the grinder yesterday and the burrs are as close as they can be together before they touch. Maybe I just had something go through the grinder in that case, it made a very loud grinding noise when it happened.

                            Originally posted by nicovington View Post
                            What is the number on the basket you are using?

                            I got mine from coffee a roma andjust use the biggest one, but it came with a standard double basket which was way better quality and in the end made much better coffee.

                            I've found on my Silvia that you get gushing shots when (and sorta in order of how I'd go about tracking it down):
                            1. Not ground fine enough
                            2. Not enough coffee
                            3. OLD BEANS
                            4. Tamp not hard enough (least likely, I like to do quite a light tamp sometimes and still get great coffee)
                            Embarrassingly I've just checked the basket and I noticed I'm using an aftermarket basket (I bought the setup second hand). I don't actually know what size is appropriate for it. I have the 40-100-010 (old style) basket from Rancilio as well.

                            In regards to your points unfortunately I can't grind any finer, I've filled the basket to the top and more many times and it still gushes, beans are fresh and I normally tamp really hard!

                            Originally posted by alphaoscar View Post
                            I have the same set up to you and find no difficulty in pulling a decent shot. The rocky should be able to grind fine enough for a 25-30 sec espresso. My rocky is at a setting of 5 so im not sure why its not working for you.

                            I am more inclined to look at how you tamp your coffee. How much pressure are you putting in? What technique do you do?

                            Otherwise increase the dosage more and see how that changes your flow. I have had issues with particular beans. I roast my own and I've come across some beans which i had to spend a lot more time than usual dialling in the shot, and had to set my rocky at its finest (which i rarely do- as i said before 5 approx is my optimal setting)
                            I tamp quite hard, I have the portafilter resting on a tampmat at the edge of the counter and angle it so that I can see the edge of the basket and the tamp. I'll apply soft pressure while making sure it's flat and then press down quite hard. I have my elbow at a right angle and try to push directly down.

                            Originally posted by TampIt View Post
                            Hi kyler

                            TOK clearly knows way more about a Rocky than I do. Unsurprisingly, a Rocky cannot touch the burrs.

                            It sounds like you received a small piece of metal at no extra cost w the roast at the time. Years ago it was such a common issue that my '85 RR45 actually has a magnet at the bottom of the hopper as a defence mechanism. Even a small piece can totally wreck the burrs. Hopefully that is not the problem, however it now seems highly likely.

                            One more to add to your checklist.


                            TampIt
                            Hmm, it does seem likely. Wish I had such a defence now!

                            I tested out a few shots to see what changes occurred. All of these were ground at 1 on the Rocky, beans were roasted on the 4th.

                            20g dose - 14 sec pour - 33g extraction

                            18g dose - 12 sec pour - 36g extraction

                            16.1g dose - 10 sec pour - 35.6g extraction

                            Results are pretty consistent. All shots were extremely bitter and acidic. All had a decent layer of crema as you can see here.

                            I will get some freshly ground beans tomorrow to test further (and probably confirm that there is an issue with Mr Rocky!).\

                            Thanks for everyone's replies.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I suggest you have a tech look at your Rocky. It may require adjustment of the zero point or alternately, the burrs may be shagged.

                              Comment

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