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Rancilio Silvia - how long to pre-heat machine before first use in the morning?

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  • #16
    Unfortunately Koshari, you are wrong in all aspects of your argument and guessing at best.
    The actual water held in the boiler is less, also most boilers are not full of water , also don't forget to account the displacement of an element.
    Your estimate of cold water going into a small area of hot water is also way out.
    Also you haven't accounted the amount of water the coffee soaks up, any coffee professional knows that for a 30 ml shot of coffee a lot more than 30 ml of water is needed and for a double shot a lot more again.
    Using a scace correctly , it is quick experiment conduct.
    Running a service centre, coffee machine sales and coffee company I am very aware there are a lot of buzz words and marketing hype which is designed to get you to buy more.
    I still regularly sell and recommend Silvia and Gaggia classic as a great entry level home machine.

    Cheers

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    • #17
      I completely do not get why having a repeatable starting brew temp with a PID is a waste of money. I use a Gaggia Classic with PID for brew and steam and it really made a big difference in pulling shots that are repeatable. Temp surfing was too unreliable compared to a PID.

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      • #18
        Because even with a PID , it is not constant and fluctuates drastically half way through the shot.
        You have to start at temperature that burns the coffee at the start and finishes to cold from about half way through the shot.
        Don't pay attention to a digital screen readout on the machine that can't keep up and is not accurate.
        The passion for coffee has got hold love it, but time to move on give the machine to grandma and spend an extra $300 to $500 upgrading and get twice the machine and an consistent 90 plus degrees from start to finish of your shot, also more than double the steam power.

        But most of all , a developed pallet will taste the difference.

        If the machine user happens to be using supermarket coffee or a very dark robusta filled roast , erase everything I have said and just keep enjoying coffee , at least they are not drinking instant.

        Cheers

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        • #19
          Why would anyone use a starting brew temp that will burn the coffee? What is this obsession with constant brew temp? New technology from Rancilio Xcelsius is profiling brew temp and lever machines are known to have a unique brew temp profile that produces excellent espresso.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Christiano View Post
            Unfortunately Koshari, you are wrong in all aspects of your argument and guessing at best.
            no argument here, just commenting based on my observations,


            The actual water held in the boiler is less,
            Really? so what is the capacity of boiler in the Silvia?

            also most boilers are not full of water , also don't forget to account the displacement of an element.
            both good points.

            Your estimate of cold water going into a small area of hot water is also way out.
            Also you haven't accounted the amount of water the coffee soaks up, any coffee professional knows that for a 30 ml shot of coffee a lot more than 30 ml of water is needed and for a double shot a lot more again.
            I admit that I didn't consider the liquid that the puck absorbs but other than that its hard to see where any more water is used, again i are all ears if you can inform me of that as well.
            I are also still interested in the testing you did to support your comments.



            Don't pay attention to a digital screen readout on the machine that can't keep up and is not accurate.
            accurate to what resolution? i suspect accuracy within a Degree C here is more than adequate?

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            • #21
              No rocket science with a Silvia.

              Once the machine is warm, let it come to top temp and then flush until you no longer hear steam. Hey presto, good shot temp.

              A PID removes the need to do this and the heating cycle starts immediately cold water enters the boiler rather than many degrees later when the bimetallic strip thermostat in non PID machine would have it heating. The result is somewhat less variation in shot temp, but boiler capacity and heating rates are still a factor.

              Ultimately the PID makes it easier, but will not necessarily deliver superior shots which are about coffee, dose and distribution.

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              • #22
                Absolutely...

                A PID Controller aids in making the coffee making and steam processes more consistent. The quality of the coffee produced is a whole other story...

                Mal.

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                • #23
                  I usually give mine 20 mins. A pid helped me eliminate another variable from my espresso process (but only after I tasted the variability pre temp surfing, and calibrated my palate with 18mo living in Melbourne!!). Now I am delivering good shots on a regular basis - looking to start playing with brew temp now for the diff so coffees I am roasting in my Behmor!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Christiano View Post
                    but time to move on give the machine to grandma and spend an extra $300 to $500 upgrading and get twice the machine and an consistent 90 plus degrees from start to finish of your shot, also more than double the steam power.
                    what machine do you recommend (for espresso only drinkers) for home, if not Silvia?

                    I see, for example, Breville Dual Boiler makes great espresso - alas it has very average quality, breaks down too often, does not last long and Breville support is terrible, if consumer reviews are to be trusted.
                    All this for $1300-$1500, does not look like a good deal to me.
                    Am I wrong?
                    Any other machines for home, in $500-$1500 price range that beat Silvia for espresso making ?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                      No rocket science with a Silvia.

                      Once the machine is warm, let it come to top temp and then flush until you no longer hear steam. Hey presto, good shot temp.

                      why not simply wait (say) 60-90 seconds after the heating light on Silvia goes off and then begin espresso extraction?
                      I feel that flushing drops the water temperature too quickly for a double espresso in 30 seconds extraction?

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                      • #26
                        Depends on how long since the machine was switched on or how long it has been on and sat there doing nothing, but superheating. With coffee and coffee machines you need to "feel" what's happening rather than work with timers and assume they have given you the right "spot" for something to work at its best.

                        The very simple method described by Chris (Talk_Coffee) in the passage you quoted, is spot on and accounts for how long the machine has been on and at what place it is in its cycle. That way, once all the overheated water has been purged, you cant help but be at the optimum place (no more super heated water flow) and will not burn the coffee. If the heating light comes on again it doesnt matter, its what the water was doing on purge before you apply the group handle and start brewing, that counts.

                        Unfortunately the tendency in these forums is for stuff to get way over complicated. Good (great/whatever) coffee making doesnt have to be that hard, to get a great result in the cup.

                        Hope that helps.

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                        • #27
                          <what machine do you recommend (for espresso only drinkers) for home, if not Silvia?>

                          On par, but Gaggia Classic is not to be frowned at
                          Last edited by aussieflicker; 20 February 2015, 07:16 PM. Reason: added stuff

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Christiano View Post
                            PID kits on these types of machines, from my testing are also a complete waste of money.
                            Really? Best coffee related thing I've ever bought is my PID kit for my Silvia...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by aussieflicker View Post
                              <what machine do you recommend (for espresso only drinkers) for home, if not Silvia?>

                              On par, but Gaggia Classic is not to be frowned at
                              I had this machine for 5+ years before I bought Silvia V3 in 2010.
                              My opinion is that Gaggia Classic is significantly inferior to Rancilio Silvia in every respect, apart from being a bit cheaper to buy.
                              Main problem - the aluminium boiler can not keep the heat long enough for a good double espresso shot.

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                              • #30
                                The lelits are getting a popular following. They are basically based on the Silvia.

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