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Advice sought: Rancilio Silvia 'gusher' extractions

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  • #31
    Hi Nikko,

    I have a V.4 Silvia and can confirm that not only was the OPV opening @ 10bar but the threads weren't sealed with a liquid thread sealer. I believe vibration caused it to tighten (I could move the nut easily with two fingers!). Pressure varied wildly with less than a quarter turn.

    I used my pressure gauge PF and dropped three drops of Loxeal 15-36 and set the OPV to release at about 8+ bar.

    Result? Way better. Using VST 18g ridgeless basket and a dorky but highly effective The Great Leveller tamp.

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    • #32
      Oh, you can replace that goofy Rancilio diffuser screen nut with a Phillips head SS machine screw too.

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      • #33
        My old Silvia was set to 12 bar, I reset it to 9 bar. (Not used now)
        One problem may have been that the grinder was not grinding evenly. Our commercial grinder, with home use, took a year to "run in", it would take a week in a shop. Before the cones were run in I had clumping and channeling. Now I get a very even grind and no channeling. My old rocky has also improved with age, clumping but no channeling.mwe use that at work.
        Last edited by dumiya; 14 July 2015, 09:56 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Bazooka View Post
          Hi Nikko,
          Glad you are getting great espresso shots. In general bitterness is associated with high brewing temperature (i.e burning the coffee) and acidic is often linked to low brewing temperature.

          If the first shot is more bitter you may like to try a cooling flush before extracting your first shot, this is done by running hot water through your brewing group head.

          Also to prevent your boiler running too hot during coffee extraction, try steaming your milk after brewing

          So the sequence goes like flush, brew and then steam

          Please let us know how you go
          Hi Bazooka,

          Appreciate the advice - I thought that too high gave a bunrt taste and too low was bitter? But thats ok I prolly got that wrong.

          Your advice is excellent as thats what I've already been doing. Perhaps I just need to use a tad longer cooling flush once the light goes off - as what I tend to do is run an extraction of empty PF into the cup to warm it - by this time I'll have the baskets ready and dosed and just needing to be tamped. So I'll wait till the light goes back on, stop the water flow. Remove PF, wipe, place basket in, tamp. By this time the light is just about to go off. So when this happens I'll hit a 2-3sec cooling flush through the group head into the cup.

          I then put the loaded PF back in, toss the water from the cup and extract. So perhaps just a longer cooling flush needed - the videos I saw suggested 2-3seconds but I might need a little more.

          Work flow is to pull the 2 x double shots first, then steam the milk (1 x jug of soy, 1 x regular) - so agree with your advice and doing that already too. :-)

          @readeral, part of the puck thng is prolly as I pull the baskets out and set them aside to empty later. I don't have a proper knockbox and can't be stuffed fiddling whilst my coffee is waiting to be drunk, so that prolly exacerbates things. But good advice none the less. :-)

          @sprezzatura, much thanks for your feedback on the OPV setting for your V4. I've never read anything about Rancilio sealing the screws on the OPV - so that seems normal - but that they were moving is obviously a concern - so I can see once you've established it at the setting you like you might want to 'lock' it in place. So you went for 8 bar eh?

          I've got to order one of these pressure gauges and just check mine as I'm sure it's going to be high, just how high is the question. Great feedback and good to know that more Silvia owners have found their OPV too high (which does seem to be the consistant feedback from those who have checked) - the vast majority do seem to just alter their grind/dose/tamp etc to work with whatever the OPV is set at but if you can check the OPV it seems a good thing to adjust as best results seem to come in the 8-9bar range.

          @dumiya's feedback echos the above but even MORE strongly...12bar! Thank you for sharing this info!

          Thanks again on a heap of great advice!

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          • #35
            ... well 8 bar plus. Not super accurate with my PG. I do a 2-3 second flush after the element lamp extinguishes.

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            • #36
              Here's what 8bar plus through the VST 18 looks like (SO Indian Monsoon) at 8 seconds or so.Click image for larger version

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              • #37
                ... three second purge off the top.

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                • #38
                  ... through a Macap M2M with 12 kg through - put on the cutters.

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                  • #39
                    Hi Nikko,

                    I'm in a similar situation to you - I just upgraded my 10year old Gaggia Classic to a Silvia V4. I too have the K3 Touch and had excellent results with the Classic. Having only had the V4 for a few days, I'm still getting used to the many nuances of the Silvia and I have to admit it is a less forgiving machine than the Classic. I too am having issues with fine-tuning the grind and dosing but I'm putting it down to early days still, so I'm doing a lot of trial and error to get the perfect extraction. Sadly most of my shots are very bitter at the moment. Have you considered trying a PID? I bought one with the V4 but am yet to install it - I'm hoping, once I've eliminated the grind, dose and tamp variables, and with the PID installed, that this will eliminate the bitterness.

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                    • #40
                      Hi sched7.
                      I went through same upgrade - from 5 years on Gaggia Classic to Rancilio Sylvia V3 (now with V4 element due to repair). But I have Rocky grinder, not sure how it compares to K3 Touch grinder.
                      I found Sylvia to be 80%+ same in terms of process of making double espresso as Gaggia Classic. I have to admit that I never ever ever ever use the steamer but for double shots Sylvia is a lot better than Gaggia Classic. The only "disadvantage" is that Sylvia needs 20 or 25 minutes as minimum warm-up before the first cup and Gaggia Classic needs ~15 min because its aluminium inside not like Sylvia brass internals. Apart from that, Sylvia makes a lot better double/single expresso than Gaggia Classic, i am speking as owner of both for 5 years (each).
                      For the rest of the Sylvia tips, see my other posts in this forum - in summary get a bigger double basket (18-21 gram Synesso ridgeless double basket is one good choice) and a naked portafilter, buy scales to 0.1 gram accuracy and a stop watch. Use 17-20 grams of beans for a double shot and adjust the grind such that you get 45-50 ml/grams of double shot extracted in ~30 seconds (for the record: I prefer 45-50 ml double shot extracted in slower pour of 35-37 sec but your taste will vary).
                      Preheat the cup with boiling hot water and always wipe the pre-heated handle/basket dry with clean towel before you put the coffee into the basket.
                      As on Gaggia, temperature surf on Sylvia too, no PID required. Wait for the heating light to go off, then wait 3 seconds and then flick the pour switch.

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                      • #41
                        Thanks for the advice acid_rider. I successfully installed my PID and couldn't be happier from the point of view that I don't need to temp. surf anymore. I also just received a VST 18g ridgeless basket today as I found the std. Rancilio one too small for my liking (max 17g before finding it difficult to turn the portafilter). I've only poured one shot with 18g loaded and sadly it extracted too quickly so my mission for the w/e is to play around with the dosing and the grind. I always measure with scales for consistency and preheat my cup/shot glass. I'm tossing up whether to buy a bottomless portafilter or convert the new Rancilio one (I successfully converted my Gaggia one and never looked back) - maybe another job for the w/e

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                        • #42
                          Hi sched7
                          I don't know VST 18gram basket so its a matter of trial and error.
                          My Synesso double basket optimum is appears to be 19-20 grams range but will take even 17-18gr as a min and 21gr as max.
                          I bought Rancilio Sylvia bottomless portafilter about 4 years ago and it comes with a double basket that is even bigger, it needs 19-20 gram as a minimum and will take up to 25 grams as a maximum with optimum probably about 23-24 grams, i.e. it is a triple shot more than a double-shot if you load it up to the top.
                          I can highly recommend Sylvia naked portafilter and the VST 18gram basket will fit into it if you prefer to use a smaller basket to the bottomless portafilter basket.

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                          • #43
                            Well alas I thought I was having some progress but a new roast of coffee and the same old issues came back as bad as before or worse. I realise now that perhaps where I was stating the extractions were bitter they instead might be 'sour'. It's hard to describe exactly I'd still say bitter is a better description but suffice to say they're unpleasant when tasted black and unsugared (before I sugar and add milk I test every extraction just by dipping a teaspoon in to taste them).

                            Compounding these matters is that I find using the 17g LM baskets with 19-20g of coffee in them just too strong for the overall size of beverage we prefer - underdosing with them really isn't an option and I think finding a basket that works BEST with ~14-16g of coffee in it is a better fit for us. But thats a side note......it's just that when the coffee is bitter and you're getting that much more of it you REALLY notice.

                            I've been weighing every single dosage down to the tenth of a gram. I've been using the WDT distribution technique with a blunted disection needle. I've been leveling the grinds out very evenly using a number of different approach. I've been applying a ~3sec cooling flush right after the light goes out and before I extract. I've tried tamping firm, I've tried a very light tamp, I've made the grind a lot finer and I've even wound it back out coarser.....NONE of it seems to make even a vaguely noticeable difference.

                            After hitting the extraction button it'll take 5-6 sec for anything to appear, for perhaps 2 sec it will appear like a good syrupy extraction and then POOF I get a very bubbly gush of extraction which seems to blonde very early and I have to terminate the extraction within 15 sec.

                            The additional thing I'll note is that the vast majority of the extraction's gush isn't liquid but rather a fake bubbled crema which makes it appear like there's loading of extraction but after 30 sec or so of resting it dissipates - but the remaining extraction is quite bitter.

                            @sched7, the PID is only going to affect the temperature of the water and I've tried both the 3 sec cooling flush and the ~26-30sec after light goes off extractions and neither really were any different. Furthermore whilst too much heat COULD explain the bitterness but it would not explain the gushing/frothy extraction. So I'm very sure that temperature is not the issue. The final kicker being that putting a further $250-300 into a PID, which represents around 60-80% of the value of the market value of the Silvia IMHO makes zero sense.

                            Do you mind if I ask did you get one of the full on kitted ones that cost $250+ or one of the DIY-trickier ones from Ebay for ~$USD30?

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                            • #44
                              Have you tried different beans? You mention the ones your using are home roasted but I cant see any mention of what equipment you're using. I agree with the others that the grinds in the original picture look very course. I would suggest first trying other beans just to remove that possibility than grinding as fine as possible to choke the espresso machine. Take you grinder as fine as you can and move back from there

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                              • #45
                                I mean this with complete respect but this is around the 4th time I've had to say it and it's NOT the beans nor my roasting - how would the equipment I use to home roast my beans have anything at all to do with the flow rate from an espresso machine - I'd put it to you thats almost an impossible connection to make unless one was absolutely butchering the roast so that it was nothing short of roadkill.

                                Again with all due respect I've repeatedly stated I've chased the grind up and down multiple times. I have first hand compared my grind to another CSer, albeit they're on a superior machine but my grind is finer than theirs. And I've gone even finer and not had any significant difference. IMHO it's hugely oversimplified to put it all on the grind and assume other variables are not the REAL driver.

                                Espresso grind is meant to be finer than table salt - but coarser than flour and that first image which is against table salt IMHO shows that to be the case - and I've gone significantly finer since then - so I'm really unsure how much clearer I can be about the grinds being used than that.

                                All this is meant with the greatest of respect but saying something that I've tried and have clearly referenced unsuccessfully trying multiple times is somewhat troublesome.

                                I'm just waiting on the elbow joint for the PF pressure gauge to arrive and I'll check that as I'm quite sure thats a significant part of the issue. :-)

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