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Advice sought: Rancilio Silvia 'gusher' extractions

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  • WantRancilio10
    replied
    No shame in a bit of user error and, by the sounds of it, no need for more aspersions on your roasting character, so no big serve of humble pie to consume!

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  • nikko.the.scorpio
    replied
    Originally posted by WantRancilio10 View Post
    Hey Nikko. Given you've moved on to implementing "full internal insulation" (in a new thread) I assume your gusher debacle is... over?
    Hi Pal,

    Yes, all sorted - in the end I was only partially able to test the OPV pressure (as my DIY gauge was undermined by the incorrect sized fitting being sent from China! but it appeared to indicate the pressure was about correct) - hence I ended up establishing that the lion's share of the issue was user error - primarily not being aware of the potentially large variation in grind size needed between different batches/roasts of coffee. I was also possibly tamping too hard and not dosing correctly.

    I really appreciated the feedback and assistance of everyone in this thread and am happy to say that the issue is now sorted. Much thanks, Nick

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  • WantRancilio10
    replied
    Hey Nikko. Given you've moved on to implementing "full internal insulation" (in a new thread) I assume your gusher debacle is... over?

    Leave a comment:


  • rawill
    replied
    What an interesting an intriguing thread, full of information and some drama!
    Love it.
    My coffee equipment is not up with the OP, and I don't roast my beans.
    I buy recently roasted Hummingbird Restart beans.

    I have never been able to get the initial syrup I want.
    However, using my shimmed EM480, I make my grind closer to flour than table salt.
    I progressively tamp, something I learned from C/S. And I am using a 7g VST basket with a Naked P/F in an EM6910.

    I get dark drips (not nearly as good as the photo in this thread) before I get the honey coloured stream, then it blonds.
    But I am also now tinkering with preinfusion, it seems to make a difference, especially in the EM4800c I have in our campervan.

    Hope you get to the bottom of your issues before too long and you can enjoy your coffee.

    Rbn
    Last edited by rawill; 14 August 2015, 05:21 PM.

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  • Dimal
    replied
    Originally posted by nikko.the.scorpio View Post
    I'll try and adhere to this approach - my main hang up was that the grind was getting very fine and I wasn't sure if I was hearing burr plates touching and was starting to get a lot of clumping etc. I'm very fastidious about cleaning the old grinds out before and after every new grind - but will follow your excellent advice.
    No worries Nikko....

    There's no mistaking this sound, it sounds nothing like beans being ground and very much like metal-on-metal contact. When you consider the size of espresso ground particles - in the micron range - you can appreciate just how close the burr-plates have to be in order to do this.

    All the best mate, and let the quality in the cup be your guide...

    Mal.

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  • nikko.the.scorpio
    replied
    Originally posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Hi Nick
    Just a quick query - I couldn't see from your OP (but maybe I've missed it elsewhere) … what machine you have moved to the Silvia from?
    Cheers Matt
    Hi Matt,
    After a number of different machines I went (and brace yourself for this)............several years only making Aeropress and French Pressed coffee. So I've revised my roasting profiles etc to take this into account. The last machine I actually had prior to this was a Silvia V2 but I wouldn't really count that as I only had it a few months due to being a knucklehead and not doing 5% of things correctly and then wondering why the coffee was poor.

    Originally posted by WantRancilio10 View Post
    Hang in there bro
    Hobbies are meant to be fun and it seems like you've been put through the ringer on this one.
    Thanks mate, ah it's not so bad as we drink with milk & sugar thus it's still to my wife, very good coffee. Haha though like Quintan Tarantino's character in 'Pulp Fiction' I can tell the difference between good coffee and crap so while she's smiling as she drinks hers I'm grumbling away at another coulda-shoulda-been extraction.

    It'll come good as I KNEW it'd take a period to nail down the variables and thus this is pretty much expected - I know once I get it right it'll be FAR easier to replicate so is only a 1st world problem & a fleeting one at that. Thanks again, Nick

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  • WantRancilio10
    replied
    Hang in there bro
    Hobbies are meant to be fun and it seems like you've been put through the ringer on this one.

    Leave a comment:


  • DesigningByCoffee
    replied
    Hi Nick
    Just a quick query - I couldn't see from your OP (but maybe I've missed it elsewhere) … what machine you have moved to the Silvia from?
    Cheers Matt

    Leave a comment:


  • nikko.the.scorpio
    replied
    Originally posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Hi NTS
    Having a good read through the whole thread, and looking at the pics, I would be trying a finer grind and light tamp option. If you grind coarse, overdose and put heaps of pressure on the tamp you can almost choke any machine at the surface temporarily, but then it will all go with a bang. Over many years I have ended up with a fine grind and very light tamp - just seems to like my roasts and setup.
    Matt, thank you for your excellent reply and advice. Your modus operandi is the same as another CSer I've referenced in this thread and I've been trying to emulate. As stated earlier I already was using an finer grind than him - but different hardware perhaps negates this, so I'll try dialing all the way back down from choking point again an see how that works out.


    Originally posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    And while I don't want to poke the hornets nest, don't be fooled - roast depth will impact on the extraction in the machine. A light fast roast will require a much slower pour, harder tamp and greater pressure and finer grind to get a tasty brew, and a longer, darker roast coarser and faster to remove bitterness. That's not to say there is anything wrong with your home roasts - but your new machine might not like your current roast depth. I roast so that my beans handle a really slow drippy pour that many machines would not like... Up to a minute plus
    All the best!
    cheers. Matt
    I do not wish to go off on what it a tangent however I never felt @Sullyboy was wrong in roast depth being a factor in any given extraction - but rather with the imposition that this was a classic case of badly roasted beans - which wasn't true on two counts, the beans weren't badly roasted and whatever the issue is (I've I've openly said it could easily me my dosing, tamping technique etc) wasn't bean related. I roast to edge of or just past 2C, 1C in ~17mins, try to get 2C in around 24min - I based this of the stickies here. Covered and insulated corretto with HG. My understanding is this is the ballpark to be in for best results (a huge oversimplification but we can't discuss a bean by bean basis). :-)

    Originally posted by Dimal View Post
    Great advice from Matt above...

    Quite a few of us have been roasting coffee at home for many years and in my case, I can attest to the variability of the grind setting required for various roasted coffees. If I left my grinder set to where it is ideal for Yemen Ismaili and then switched over to a PNG/Indo coffee, I would be experiencing exactly what you describe - Gushers with every pour....

    Don't get hung up on any particular grind setting, you set your grinder to where it needs to be in order to achieve the desired pour rate for your particular tastes. I never take any notice of where my grinder is set, just adjust it as required - Never fails. I guess the only time you need to get worried, is if you have to set your grinder so fine that you can hear the burr-plates touching. Other than that, any and all settings are fine, so long as you are just focussing on the quality of the pour into the cup...

    Mal.
    Thank you Dimal, I've said it before but your advice is always guru-esque - great info and you've a real knack for imparting it in a consumable & easy to digest manner. OK, so this might be part of the factor as I perhaps wasn't adjusting enough. So you'd roast a new batch of coffee.....grind it......extract and depending on what happened in the extraction (as in a perfect world the ONLY variable thats changing is the specific coffee being used i.e dose, technique, grind, all stay the same) - THEN adjust the grind in or out depending on whether it pulled too fast or slow? Ok, well that seems completely logical.

    I'll try and adhere to this approach - my main hang up was that the grind was getting very fine and I wasn't sure if I was hearing burr plates touching and was starting to get a lot of clumping etc. I'm very fastidious about cleaning the old grinds out before and after every new grind - but will follow your excellent advice.

    Thank you. Nick

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  • Dimal
    replied
    Great advice from Matt above...

    Quite a few of us have been roasting coffee at home for many years and in my case, I can attest to the variability of the grind setting required for various roasted coffees. If I left my grinder set to where it is ideal for Yemen Ismaili and then switched over to a PNG/Indo coffee, I would be experiencing exactly what you describe - Gushers with every pour....

    Don't get hung up on any particular grind setting, you set your grinder to where it needs to be in order to achieve the desired pour rate for your particular tastes. I never take any notice of where my grinder is set, just adjust it as required - Never fails. I guess the only time you need to get worried, is if you have to set your grinder so fine that you can hear the burr-plates touching. Other than that, any and all settings are fine, so long as you are just focussing on the quality of the pour into the cup...

    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • DesigningByCoffee
    replied
    Hi NTS
    Having a good read through the whole thread, and looking at the pics, I would be trying a finer grind and light tamp option. If you grind coarse, overdose and put heaps of pressure on the tamp you can almost choke any machine at the surface temporarily, but then it will all go with a bang. Over many years I have ended up with a fine grind and very light tamp - just seems to like my roasts and setup.
    And while I don't want to poke the hornets nest, don't be fooled - roast depth will impact on the extraction in the machine. A light fast roast will require a much slower pour, harder tamp and greater pressure and finer grind to get a tasty brew, and a longer, darker roast coarser and faster to remove bitterness. That's not to say there is anything wrong with your home roasts - but your new machine might not like your current roast depth. I roast so that my beans handle a really slow drippy pour that many machines would not like... Up to a minute plus
    All the best!
    cheers. Matt

    Leave a comment:


  • Sullyboy
    replied
    Originally posted by nikko.the.scorpio View Post
    I've even used another MORE experienced CSer's roasted coffee with the exact same results.
    That is all you had to say mate. Of course I'm going to make assumptions about you though. All the information I have about you is in a couple of forum. I'm not going to argue with you and I backed up every claim I made pretty succinctly but I posted in this tread to genuinely help you. There are a ton of beginners on this forum so I believe it is always best to start at a basic level of knowledge. Good luck with it mate. I hope you get it working eventually

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  • nikko.the.scorpio
    replied
    Measure twice cut once.......you've come in made a lot of unsupported assumptions, which well we all know what they say about those. Even a rudimentary glance at my name banner on left clearly shows I've been a member for 7+ yrs, which in itself means SFA but coming in stating I'm clearly a beginner is somewhat bound to draw a reaction. :-/

    Sorry but if it's a CLASSIC CASE then you're going to have to forgive me thinking it's got to be spelt out on multiple sites not just written by yourself - as I'll put it to you, it's NOT a classic case of badly roasted coffee.

    Primarily as my coffee is not badly roasted, always taken to the edge of 2C and complies with the vast majority of agreed roasting profile curves and so your assumption of 'under-roasted' has zero traction. Secondly, I've even used another MORE experienced CSer's roasted coffee with the exact same results. So call me skeptical but if you've external links, I'm all ears but regardless it's really a moot point as the coffee is absolutely not the issue.

    What I mean by that last section is crystal clear - you see unlike yourself I've made no such assumptions about what knowledge you may or may not have. That you've never made a single post here until today....not a big deal. I prefer NOT to assume, as it can come back and made one look awfully silly. You may well be the world's leading authority on coffee however you've based nearly everything you've said around a completed flawed assumption which meant it had zero meaning in application to my issues. As a sidenote you've stated it's a CLASSIC case and not supported this somewhat bold claim (as this by its nature implies every other member who's posted in the thread overlooked this 'obvious' causation) in any meaningful manner.

    I DO APPRECIATE that you tried to assist - so thank you for that however it might be best to ask a few questions or read over things more thoroughly before you go basing your entire premise around the individual being an incompetent beginner and effectively telling them as such. :-)
    Last edited by nikko.the.scorpio; 30 July 2015, 04:05 PM.

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  • Sullyboy
    replied
    Originally posted by nikko.the.scorpio View Post
    It's not rude to say - but I'd have to question what basis anything I've said makes you think I'm '..a beginner..' at making coffee and SPECIFICALLY roasting coffee??? I'll tell you what I am a beginner at - is using this specific espresso machine - but I'd be very interested to hear you support your comments above.
    I'll apologize, I did miss the line where you said you had been doing this for a while but your comments about lower water temp leading to bitterness and the fact that the grinds in your picture are very clearly way too course for espresso made me think you were just starting out with coffee

    Originally posted by nikko.the.scorpio View Post
    Furthermore could you please provide evidence of as you say the issues above being a 'classic case of improperly roasted coffee - classic case ...? Ok well again I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, despite your 2 posts ever - but if it's classic I'm sure you'll have no problem giving evidence of how my EXACT issues are caused by improperly roasted coffee.
    Under roasted coffee will have a lot of moisture left in it and will need to be ground much finer to get a proper extraction. It will often start flowing nicely than quickly gush as it extracts all it can from the grounds very quickly which it what you mentioned is happening to you. You also mentioned that last time you thought you fixed the issue by grinding finer.

    Originally posted by nikko.the.scorpio View Post
    The above may read harsh but that is NOT my intention however when you state I sound like a beginner at roasting coffee when you know NOTHING of this area I'm left very much bemused.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this but if you're saying I know nothing of this area (coffee) because I only have a couple of posts in a small Australian forum than you should realise the world outside is a lot bigger than CoffeeSnobs.com.au

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  • acid_rider
    replied
    I agree with blend52, please get some already roasted beans from a well known coffee beans supplier (i.e not supermarket, not from aldi) and see if it makes a difference.
    you may be doing something wrong in roasting process and this will eliminate the possibility one way or another, buy a batch for $5-$10 and use them to test things at home.

    If you find 17-19 grams too strong from a double basket than use the standard Silvia double basket which will optimally takes 15-16-17 grams range (start with 15-16 grams).

    If you can access another grinder - on my Rocky the level 5 or 6 is what I use with good results, when it was new I used level 7 and then 6 but how its 5 years old, I use level 5, likely due to wear-and-tear.
    Visit a shop that sells Rocky griners and has a Rocky test grinder on display, put some roasted beans in it, on grind level 5 or 6, and examine the resulting grind closely and compare it with your grinder.
    You may be too coarse on home grinder.

    Or go to a coffee shop that makes great espresso in your area and ask them to put a small handful of their espresso ground coffee into palm of your hand so you can compare the home grind with professional grind.

    good luck

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