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Gaggia Classic - Poor brew pressure

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  • LeroyC
    replied
    There you go. No matter how much it doesn't make sense it almost always comes back to the 3-way. It sounds like you've cleared it this time. If it happens again it probably means you've got scale in your group head that's making its way back into the 3-way so look out for that. Good luck, hope it's all plain sailing from here.

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  • cyclonite
    replied
    OK this is interesting: I turned on the machine from cold and was watching the OPV overflow tube. As it heated up, the water in the tube kept creeping up. When I switched on the brew switch it started a steady drip out of the overflow.

    This would suggest the OPV is set (way) too low?

    Update 1:

    So I've tighted the OPV valve (should be set much higher now) to try to rule out the OPV.
    I'm no longer seeing any water creeping out of the OPV overflow tube anymore.

    However, bafflingly, the flow hasn't improved and I'm not seeing any leaks or water escaping via the 3-way valve seals or outlet.

    Update 2:

    I put a blind basket in the PF and the first and second flush attempt didn't work.
    On the 3rd go it give a big gush and a few scale particles came out!
    Now, the flow out of the brew head is back to normal! I'm sure tightening the OPV valve helped otherwise I wasn't able to get the necessary pressure in the brew chamber to backflush the junk stuck in the 3-way valve.
    Last edited by cyclonite; 7 February 2016, 02:53 PM.

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  • cyclonite
    replied
    So do you think we can rule out the 3-way?

    Dose and grind are pretty good. I have a Super Jolly and can consistently achieve a good espresso with a 2x yield recipe: 20g in 40g out in ~30seconds. Previously it would be about 3-4 seconds until first drop, and give a good looking extraction throughout (using a naked PF).
    However with this poor flow it's now about 12 seconds until first drop and then quite a watery extraction.

    Todo:
    - double check the OPV overflow tube and see if it's still dripping out water, both during extraction and flushing without a PF.
    - Look for any leaks or water internally

    Leave a comment:


  • MrJack
    replied
    Bingo. But it sounds like that might not be happening.

    How certain are you that dose /grind are not the problem?

    Possibly a leak from the piping somewhere (or the OPV is set too low)?
    Last edited by MrJack; 7 February 2016, 11:15 AM.

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  • cyclonite
    replied
    Originally posted by MrJack View Post
    If you can check for water coming from the 3 way valve during your shot, it would confirm or discount my hypothesis
    Just pulled some shots and can confirm: there is no water coming out of the 3-way valve outlet tube during extraction.
    There is still a good spurt of water coming out of the outlet after stopping the extraction.

    Similarly, with no PF installed, there is no water coming out of the 3-way while flushing water out of the brew head.

    So IIUC the theory is:
    A bit of sediment inside the valve could cause the valve (when energised) to not seal properly.
    If the valve does not seal properly, there is an alternate path (with probably lower resistance) of flow for the water.

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  • LeroyC
    replied
    Originally posted by MrJack View Post
    If you are getting that kind of flow with the PF removed, I can't see how a blockage in the 3 way valve can result in the issues described.

    A passing three way valve, on the other hand, would provide an alternate route for water to travel - when there is a lot of resistance in the group then water could preferentially flow through the 3 way valve (preventing the pressure rising).

    With no coffee in the PF, there is relatively less resistance in that branch (than through the passing valve) , so water flows that way instead.

    If you can check for water coming from the 3 way valve during your shot, it would confirm or discount my hypothesis
    You're right, it's not a blocked 3-way per se, rather a small blockage inside the valve that prevents it from working properly. Semantics really, but technically you're right. Still needs to be dealt with in the same way.
    The only other thing that can cause this is a 3-way that leaks due to a poor seal. This can happen when the seals are old and perished or if it's not done up tight enough. If this is what's happening there'll be tell tale water marks on the outside of the valve assembly.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrJack
    replied
    If you are getting that kind of flow with the PF removed, I can't see how a blockage in the 3 way valve can result in the issues described.

    A passing three way valve, on the other hand, would provide an alternate route for water to travel - when there is a lot of resistance in the group then water could preferentially flow through the 3 way valve (preventing the pressure rising).

    With no coffee in the PF, there is relatively less resistance in that branch (than through the passing valve) , so water flows that way instead.

    If you can check for water coming from the 3 way valve during your shot, it would confirm or discount my hypothesis

    Leave a comment:


  • LeroyC
    replied
    Originally posted by cyclonite View Post
    Yeah I think you're right. I've just installed the new pump and no improvement Still sitting at < 150mL/min out of the brew head.



    Yep, steam wand gives strong flow. Measured it at >500mL/min.
    I have stripped apart, descaled and manually cleaned the 3-way. Maybe I didn't clean it enough or the blockage is somewhere I can't get at? I'll investigate re-cleaning and/or replacing and report back!
    I think you'll end up buying a new 3-way as apparently small, almost microscopic pieces of scale can get in the part of the valve that you can't see and block it. And no matter what you do you'll never get them out. If you want to have one more go at it make sure you replace all the O-rings and make sure you got it done up nice and tight when you put it back together.

    Leave a comment:


  • cyclonite
    replied
    Originally posted by LeroyC View Post
    I experienced exactly the same thing with my Gaggia Classic and did exactly the same maintenance routine that you've done including replacing the pump (although I was able to re-use my boiler). In the end I only fixed the issue by replacing the 3-way and I have a feeling you'll need to do the same.
    Yeah I think you're right. I've just installed the new pump and no improvement Still sitting at < 150mL/min out of the brew head.

    Originally posted by burr View Post
    I would agree. I recently had my gaggia fail with similar symptoms. One give away is that pumping through the steam wand still works fine. The reason why the pump is now quiet is that it only makes noise when building up pressure - sitting at 15 bar doesn't make much noise.

    I didn't even need to relpace my 3-way, but just clean it out as per this guide. For me the water flow was only temporarily fixed before another block, hence I cleared it and then immediately did a double descale. I learnt my lesson - while I did do occasional descales on it previously, the few years it spent in the UK with its original owner must have fouled it up badly.
    Yep, steam wand gives strong flow. Measured it at >500mL/min.
    I have stripped apart, descaled and manually cleaned the 3-way. Maybe I didn't clean it enough or the blockage is somewhere I can't get at? I'll investigate re-cleaning and/or replacing and report back!

    Leave a comment:


  • burr
    replied
    I would agree. I recently had my gaggia fail with similar symptoms. One give away is that pumping through the steam wand still works fine. The reason why the pump is now quiet is that it only makes noise when building up pressure - sitting at 15 bar doesn't make much noise.

    I didn't even need to relpace my 3-way, but just clean it out as per this guide. For me the water flow was only temporarily fixed before another block, hence I cleared it and then immediately did a double descale. I learnt my lesson - while I did do occasional descales on it previously, the few years it spent in the UK with its original owner must have fouled it up badly.

    Leave a comment:


  • LeroyC
    replied
    I experienced exactly the same thing with my Gaggia Classic and did exactly the same maintenance routine that you've done including replacing the pump (although I was able to re-use my boiler). In the end I only fixed the issue by replacing the 3-way and I have a feeling you'll need to do the same.

    Leave a comment:


  • noidle22
    replied
    10 year old pump which has had regular use would be nearing it's time for replacement anyway.

    There's not much more it could be at this stage it seems. On most of the Classics that I have worked on, it's been the pump or a blockage in the 3-way that cause the most grief.

    Leave a comment:


  • cyclonite
    replied
    Originally posted by JojoS View Post
    I am guessing that it is either a pump issue or narrowing of the brew water passage on the lower part of the boiler due to lack of detergent back flushing.
    Yeah, so I'm leaning toward pump issue since I've pulled the boiler and group head apart and thoroughly cleaned them.
    I've tried back flushing and there's a good spurt/burst of water out of the drain pipe. That part of the system has been pulled apart and cleaned also.

    Leave a comment:


  • cyclonite
    replied
    To get the order of events clear:

    1. Experience poor flow out of group head
    2. Did the things outlined in OP (including OPV clean and adjustment)
    3. Still experiencing poor flow out of group head

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  • JojoS
    replied
    Hmmm? How can you say you never adjusted the OPV when you posted earlier that you cleaned it up and removed the adjustment valve. That alone is an adjustment and you will need a pressure gauge to set it right. I am guessing that it is either a pump issue or narrowing of the brew water passage on the lower part of the boiler due to lack of detergent back flushing.

    Leave a comment:

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